Proposal for a summit about keeping markers legal

[manike]

Great idea Steve, but a few points...

Originally posted by Wadidiz
The epidemic of illegal markers is spreading more and more all over the paintball scene and has given rise to a lot of discussion and debate. As Pete Robinson pointed out so aptly in the March issue of PGI, this is an issue that must be got under control or it could do us in, probably at the cost of human suffering.

By illegal markers I mean those which very definitely shoot beyond the semi-automatic mode under playing conditions. Some markers are known to be able to enhance the ROF well beyond one-shot per trigger cycle. Some are also known to effectively increase the velocity beyond what is allowed and what is safe.

What are you going to try and achieve at this meeting? A solution to stopping people using illegal markers? i.e. A solution to stopping people cheating? Or a solution to stop making things that people can cheat with?

I'm a little unsure how the manufacturers of the guns can stop the end user cheating with them without significant expense on an unrelated (to their direct business) piece of equipment, should that fall under the responsbility of the event promotors?, or do you just want such people there for technical expertise? or to promise you they won't make 'illegal guns'?

I remember the last time all the gun manufacturers got together to set the 13bps limit..........................................

Also there's no way I'd come if you don't spell my name right. SteVens.

 

[TJ Lambini]

Did you not see my ammendments recommending that Wad only invite important people?

 

[manike]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Did you not see my ammendments recommending that Wad only invite important people?

Absolutely, but that doesn't change the fact he was going to invite me and spelt my name wrong, and got what I do/did wrong...

I wouldn't be a member of any meeting that wanted me there anyway.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Did you not see my ammendments recommending that Wad only invite important people?

I saw it and I was damn well looking forward to meeting up again with Manike...........but alas........

 

[manike]

What so you wouldn't be allowed to come on TJ's list either?

Shame, how about we go find a bar somewhere and put the world to rights instead?

EDIT: It may even be a more productive meeting...

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by manike
Great idea Steve, but a few points...



What are you going to try and achieve at this meeting? A solution to stopping people using illegal markers? i.e. A solution to stopping people cheating? Or a solution to stop making things that people can cheat with?

I'm a little unsure how the manufacturers of the guns can stop the end user cheating with them without significant expense on an unrelated (to their direct business) piece of equipment, should that fall under the responsbility of the event promotors?, or do you just want such people there for technical expertise? or to promise you they won't make 'illegal guns'?

I remember the last time all the gun manufacturers got together to set the 13bps limit..........................................

Also there's no way I'd come if you don't spell my name right. SteVens.

Hello Mr Stevens,

Sorry about the mispelling. As for the purpose for the proposed meeting, to try to get a collective effort going to move towards substantial control of markers that break the one-shot per trigger cycle rule and that can illegally and intentionally be made to shot at higher than legal velocities. I don't know how this can be done but maybe some ideas could come forth in the proposed meeting. I originally included your name and many others because I felt we need some "thinkers" and people like yourself who have a high degree of expertise.

I know that there have been threads and articles about this issue without any clear, simple solutions coming forth. I also know what I'm suggesting might be complex or unrealistic but we've got to start somewhere. We got to a least try IMO.

Steve

 

[manike]

I think it's a good idea also, but I think we need some clear objectives and intentions before we spend the time and money to bring everyone together.

I also think it's going to be very tough to make everyone agree, and to find a way forward. But that's no reason not to try.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by manike
I think it's a good idea also, but I think we need some clear objectives and intentions before we spend the time and money to bring everyone together.

I also think it's going to be very tough to make everyone agree, and to find a way forward. But that's no reason not to try.

What do you think should be the objectives and intentions? The problems have been defined and I suppose it's not enough to say we need to find some solutions to the problems and find ways to at least get some control of rampant markers?

Steve

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
The problems have been defined

Have they?

I think a great start would be a clearly stated set of issues and definitions of the problems. Define what's been found and what the concerns are.

You need to be careful about having proof and not just making wild accusations or speculation also.

Roughly like

1) illegal software blah blah Full Auto and Velocity

2) easily cheated legal software blah blah bounce etc.

3) competition modes and verification blah blah

4) testing and checking methods blah blah

5) penalties blah blah

6) rules. blah blah.

7) safety issues. blah blah protective equipment etc.

etc.

I still think more refs and more penalties is going to be one of the best current answers.

And maybe, just maybe, some realistic proposals that aren't going to single anyone out or cause immediate hostilities.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by manike
Have they?

I think a great start would be a clearly stated set of issues and definitions of the problems. Define what's been found and what the concerns are.

You need to be careful about having proof and not just making wild accusations or speculation also.

Roughly like

1) illegal software blah blah Full Auto and Velocity

2) easily cheated legal software blah blah bounce etc.

3) competition modes and verification blah blah

4) testing and checking methods blah blah

5) penalties blah blah

6) rules. blah blah.

7) safety issues. blah blah protective equipment etc.

etc.

I still think more refs and more penalties is going to be one of the best current answers.

And maybe, just maybe, some realistic proposals that aren't going to single anyone out or cause immediate hostilities.

I am notorious for writing long posts so I left readers here to remember the many posts about cheater guns.

I agree with you that we shouldn't speculate and there is so much hearsay around these issues. But I have seen many suspicious guns and have felt the results of very hot guns, but that is very subjective. Many people assume and take for granted that markers have got out of control, again hearsay. I think where there's smoke there's usually fire.

To be sure, from my angle this is not an attempt to point any fingers, single out anyone or cause hostilities, just an attempt to get together in a friendly way to address what could become an even greater problem or have severe consequences.

I agree with you that the place to start is with rules and penalties along with a strong will to enforce them.

We are already taking at least baby steps in Millennium. We will be implementing many things you suggested in another thread: getting a robot and making use of video recordings.

It would be much better if we all could address these issues in concert however, for obvious reasons.

And I named you along with some other "thinkers" because I have a will to address what I see is a growing problem but I am out of my depths about many of the technical issues. That's why I'm asking you for help.

Steve