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R

raehl

Guest
Uhm... why?

Why do you want international standards? No other sport has them that I can think of. Trying to make everyone play the same way is both a waste of energy and counterproductive. The way kids play a sport when they're 10 isn't going to be the same way they play it when they're 16 in HS or 20 in College or 25 or 30 in Pros or the local park league - and it shouldn't be. Hell, even baseball in Japan is different from Baseball in the states, NBA basketball different than European Basketball than Olympic basketball - and that's all fine. The base concepts are the same, and that's all that's needed. You run 3 miles in cross country in High School and 5 in college because the athletes are more mature (or more selected, fewer competing seriously on a per-capita basis.) There is a LOT of value to having sports be flexible to age and geography.


If you want an international body, or even a national one, you need the following things:

1) A set of goals. What is this organization going to do? Certify equipment? Sanction events? Monitor athletes? Set rules standards? Field or reffing standards? Promote the sport? Subsidize competition? Influence legislation? Do you want one organization to do it all or a few or several organizations to do each task?

2) A concerned, loyal membership. You need members who are going to take their necessary role in running the organization seriously. If people arn't forcing their opinions on those in charge of the organization and giving them a mandate, then the organization has no power and is worthless.

3) A "democratic" process. In order to gain a loyal, concerned membership, the members have to know that they don't need to go start over from scratch if they don't like what's going on. They need to be able to simply replace the people in charge. They need to feel like the organization is THEIRS. On a scale of one (easy) to 10 (difficult), replacing the leadership needs to be about a 3. If the members don't feel like they have any REAL CONTROL over what the organization does, they won't feel like the organization is theirs, and they won't follow it's lead.

4) People willing to be leaders for what the organization is willing to pay them. There are very very few qualified people who can put in 10-40 hours a week as a volunteer running an organization. Why? Because those same people are qualified to have real jobs that pay them to feed and clothe themselves and their families, and when you're done working 40 hours a week at the job that pays the bills, it's much harder to find another 40 hours a week to spend on something else. That's a big thing holding APPA (American Paintball Players Association, players lobbying body) back right now - qualified people with the time to make it happen.


To use the NCPA (National Collegiate Paintball Association, in the states) as an example:

We have a monopoly on college paintball. If the event is NCPA sanctioned, it's a college tournament, if it isn't NCPA sanctioned, it isn't. You can't really have a college tournament without NCPA sanctioning. It's not because I'm any brighter than the next guy or I have any industry influence (hah!), it's because the college clubs and teams have virtually all agreed that NCPA events are the only ones that matter to them, so if your event doesn't do what it takes to get NCPA sanctioning, the college teams are not going to bother going. That sanctioning tells the teams that their association says the event is in their best interest. They elect a Board of Directors to set the standards for NCPA events, and it's my job as President to execute that policy. If I don't execute the policy right, the Board replaces me, and if the clubs/teams arn't satisfied with the policies, they replace the Board. They don't have to go start from scratch because that replacement mechanism is there. And their continued involvement, coupled with the general knowlege that the teams go where the national organization goes, THAT gives the organization strength.

All our tournaments are sub-$100/team (the National Championships were even free entry/air for everyone) and in the $45-75/case range. With reffing by people who are NOT players. That's also because of some other effects (teams stepping up to organize events, running on a non-profit basis, minimizing publicity and administration overhead, using existing paintball locations), but having a single authoratative national organization definitely helps.


Outside of college paintball though, that doesn't really exist. NPPL splitting from PSP might have meant something - if everyone assumed that the teams would leave with NPPL. That wasn't the case - everyone was asking "Where are the teams going to play?" The common answer was "We'll play where our sponsor wants us to." Which left you with a big NPPL vs. PSP shouting match, because neither of them had a clear mandate from the teams. They eventually figurred out that since the customers wern't backing one side or the other, neither of them had the mandate to change anything, instead of one or the other winning, they were just both goign to lose. But back to the "play where the sponsor says" - that should be a pretty clear indication why the industry has all the power and the players have none.

This is actually what NPPL was founded on - teams getting together and saying they were going to force accountability - but then the teams got complacent, stopped being involved, and things fell apart. You don't get something for nothing.

Politics will ALWAYS be a part of it though - taking multiple opinions and forming them into a single course of action is an art form. Politics is balancing the needs and requests of multiple interests in a manner that keeps as many of people involved as possible, and that's going to exist wherever you have more than one person.


Until teams are willing to possibly sacrifice some of their own individual good for an organization representing their collective power and maintain ACTIVE involvement in the operations of that organization, teams will continue to be treated like the inconsequential, unorganized customers they are. Feel like you're being treated like your team doesn't matter?


That's because it doesn't.


- Chris
 
R

raehl

Guest
A quick note to the guy from Britain...

Do you guys have student activities/clubs? Surely British universities have activities for students that arn't based on competing against other universities. Organize as one of those, focus mainly on recreational paintball. You'll need rec ball to build your base of tournament players anyway. It's ALL about numbers. If you're a university administrator, what's more important: 5 paintball tournament players, or 200 paintball players?

As for BUSA or whatever - who cares if they accept you? Who cares if the Universities say playing is ok? It's a nice long term goal, but it's not necessary right now. 5 guys from the same school is a University Team. Get as many groups of 5 guys as you can in one spot and have a tournament. 10 schools is PLENTY - lots of our conferences start with 4. Once you have an event on a regular basis, other groups of 5 guys will come out to play, BUSA or no BUSA. But then when you DO want BUSA sanctioning, you've built up the critical mass of teams that you need.


- Chris
 

Dannefaerd

Platinum Member
Jul 8, 2001
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Chris

Soccer, Rugby, Volleyball, Squash, League, etc...they all have international standards. Why can't paintball?

I agree that on the face of things it does not appear the easiest thing to promote/do, but I believe that it is necessary as a part of paintballs next evolution step. It has been tried before (IPPA), and failed after time (for reasons that we don't need to go into here).

In simple terms I believe that an international organisation should only (initially) be a simple agreement between country groups to try and set some (initially) very simple standards

1. International playing rules
2. An International playing classification
3. Set an international format

Membership - let the individual country orgainsations have the membership for players in their own countries - and have the countries form the membership to the international organisation. Similar to the way the IRB and FIFA work (although without the "cooking the books" scandles that is rocking soccer at the moment)

Chris - you obviously have given some thought to all of this, and from your posts on this board (and others I've read) you seem to have a good grasp on things. Why not join in and lend your experience to something like this, it can only help things in the long run.

FYI - in the short time this thread has been here there has been contact between the UK, NZ and Australia on talking about this concept further. Open invitation to all other countries to pony up and start talking as well. What have you got to lose?

Cheers
Martin

Want to pony up? Email me here.
 
R

raehl

Guest
Oh, don't get me wrong..

I'm not saying we shouldn't have an international body, I'm just saying you need to decide in advance what you want it to do, and I think striving for uniform rules is a mistake. Defined rules for INTERNATIONAL play and letting people decide how close to those rules they want to be, great - trying to make everyone play the same, bad. Standards for equipment or referees or whatever, also good. Combining efforts for sport promotion, excellent.

I also know from experience that you can't start from the top and work down - you need to go from the ground up. You can't have a strong international organization until you have at least a handful of secure national organizations, and an international organization will have to start as a union of existing national organiations. Trying to just start an international organization and then create national organizations to join it (or push existing national organizations to join it) won't work - because you don't have a base, so anyone you're trying to recruit to do the work won't see the value in dealing with you since you've got nothing to offer.

And the same goes for national organizations - A national organization can't just be a couple guys claiming to represent a country. They need to be based on some group of smaller organizations, who may in turn need to be based on another smaller group of organizations themselves. In the NCPA, first, there were clubs. When there were enough clubs in one spot, then there were conferences. When there were enough conferences, THEN there was the NCPA. Trying to have an international body before you have the critical mass of organizations at the local, state/province, and national levels is putting the cart before the horse. Put another way: A small group of people running an international organization could not possibly hope to support the rate new local organizations would need to be created for the international organization to be meaningful. They'll have their hands full just keeping countries interacteing - there has to be lower levels of the organization to drive and support local-level growth.

As for me personally, I'm not going to get involved directly because I'm simply just spread too thin. I can't personally take on more responsibility unless someone is willing to pay me for it because otherwise I need to maintain my real job. After that, and the NCPA, and APPA (which I already don't have nearly enough time for) I just can't possibly do anything else. If someone else wants to do it and I think they're doing it the right way, I'll be the first to support it, but I'm just simply overworked as it is. Plus its silly for me to work on an international organization when my country doesn't even have a national one yet.

- Chris
 

KillerOnion

Lord of the Ringtones
I've said it a zillion times probably, but here it fits so here I shall place it. The paintballing community needs to FIRST, NOW, AND FOREVER concentrate on getting the playing public geared towards tournament play instead of dividing its attention, money, and creativity towards all the odd rec and scenario variations out there. The publicity methods, time, and energy that go towards scenario play should be applied to tournament events, and with equal or greater attention to drawing public crowds. Right now you can look at the majority of publications and websites and see a hodgepodge effort of trying to promote all sorts of paintballing, some of which are totally unrecognizable to each other, the net result being chaos and total loss of recognizable purpose and direction.

As to the 5 tournament players versus 200 paintball players, well, shouldn't we be trying to make that into 50 and 155? At least we could try to make it a more accommodating for people to advance in the sport. For example, anyone that gets good at tennis in middle school can with reasonable ease try out for the high school team in a couple of years without stepping into an unrecognizable field and without much obstruction. Oh, and major point: STOP PREYING ON CUSTOMERS AND TRY HELPING THEM. Yes, the pricing, setup, and hours available to play give people more reasons to quit paintball than to keep playing. Darn near every other sport is open 7 days a week for play, have different strata of players EASILY FOUND AND DEFINED AND PRESENT NEARLY EVERY DAY (e.g. One has a handicap in golf that identifies at what level one plays, can communicate such to the shop, and within an hour of tee time desired find someone to play with without having to drive halfway across the country and spend a month or more on the phone or Internet.), encourage advanced play instead of penalizing it at every opportunity, make attempts to relieve rather than emburden costs on the newcoming player, and advertise within the community.

The sport as a whole needs to stop being afraid of its own shadow, too. We need to stop whimpering about our self labeled lack of legitimacy when so many others out there get farther that we have with far less. For heaven's sake, there are thousands of groups of absolute raving lunatics and absolute nitwits out there (various environmentalist organizations, protect-this-and-that, feed/fund this, and begrieved individuals/parties) that get 500x more attention and credibility than paintball does. What did they do? Make noise, not get discouraged (Some of them were they in their right mind would commit suicide from just looking in a mirror.), hammer the idea that they like what they believe and that everyone else were they to give it a minute or two will too, speak from the frame of mind that "Of course you know us. Everyone knows us. We are right and everyone knows we're right," and that everyone that disagrees with them is either uninformed, insensitive, stupid, or a bad person. Not that I would recommend going quite that far, but you see the idea. Perhaps a brighter example is the toy industry. They get kids craving ANYTHING. I mean anything. If some toy designer farted in a bag, you can bet that the marketing, advertising, and publicity people would get together and have every kid in the US lining up for 300 yards outside the door of toy stores to buy it, and buy it they would. You didn't think the classic children's story "The Emperor's New Clothes" was just idle nonsense, did you?
 

Hotpoint

Pompey Paintballer
Oh, don't get me wrong..

Originally posted by raehl
I'm not saying we shouldn't have an international body, I'm just saying you need to decide in advance what you want it to do, and I think striving for uniform rules is a mistake. Defined rules for INTERNATIONAL play and letting people decide how close to those rules they want to be, great - trying to make everyone play the same, bad. Standards for equipment or referees or whatever, also good. Combining efforts for sport promotion, excellent.

- Chris
After looking around for ideas I would suggest Golf as a model on the rules side of things. It does have an internationally accepted set of regulations (The Royal and Ancient - St Andrews) however it does allow different styles of play within those rules plus local amendments to suit course conditions

Paintball could follow a similar pattern of an Internationally accepted set of core rules plus regional variation.

Input anyone?
 
Chris makes excellent points...

Look at mountain biking; aside from recreational riding you've got XC, enduro, multi-day stage races, downhill, dual slalom, Biker-X...yet XC was still recognized by the IOC as an Olympic sport.

But let's not get too hung up about the Olympics being a cash cow...XC mountain biking is dying a death and most sponsored teams have now folded; all the money from the industry goes to the recreational side of things, with a little going to the more extreme downhill races and teams. Since gaining Olympic recognition, XC MTB has been in decline - the Olympics played no part in that, but it sure didn't provide the outside sponsorship and increase in competitor base that people thought it would...who's to say Paintball would benefit?

I question the whole Paintball + Olympics = Team Pepsi Dynasty on the backpages of the New York Times equation that everyone seems to take for granted
 

Hotpoint

Pompey Paintballer
Chris makes excellent points...

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
the Olympics played no part in that, but it sure didn't provide the outside sponsorship and increase in competitor base that people thought it would...who's to say Paintball would benefit?

I question the whole Paintball + Olympics = Team Pepsi Dynasty on the backpages of the New York Times equation that everyone seems to take for granted
Okay but I would say that the difficulty Paintball has in going truely mainstream is more to do with an image problem rather than a financial one

Moving towards IOC recognition or even properly televised international paintball events would surely help us get rid of the paramilitary conotations that still prevail in the minds of much of the public

Comments?
 
I'd say the problem - and another reason Olympics won't touch pball - is that you need a reasonable amount of expendable income to play ball...forget the Olympics, it will NEVER happen and they ain't necessary.

Look at adventure racing: No-one questions it's a sport, most events are televised - Eco Challenge is HUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEE in tha US - and it has multiple formats and disciplines and can be confusing as **** to the outside audience. Plus it shouldn't make for good TV, but it does....and the participants are viewed as loons.

See any paralells with pball?
 

Liz

New Member
Jan 17, 2002
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Originally posted by TJ Lambini
I'd say the problem - and another reason Olympics won't touch pball - is that you need a reasonable amount of expendable income to play ball...forget the Olympics, it will NEVER happen and they ain't necessary.
That won't be the reason why it won't become an Olympic sport - there are plenty even more expensive sports that are included. All the equestrian events for starters - have you ANY idea what it costs to keep just one horse in competition let alone the 8-10 you really need if you have Olympic aspirations? And ask any sailor what their sport costs them, especially once you get above small dinghy sized boats.
Then you add on the amount it costs the host nations to create the various environments necessary for the sport to take place, e.g. artificial white water rivers for canoeing, cross country courses for 3-day eventing etc, compared to typical paintball arenas.
Image will be the biggest problem, not cost in getting Olympic accreditation.