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Beaker

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Jul 9, 2001
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Tony,

Considering your position maybe.....maybe not :D

My point wasn't really to get an answer as such, but merely to demonstrate the point.

My (and Buddha's, wadidiz, headrock, Robbo etc etc etc) point is that we believe that it should be possible to put on better events for the money that is being gathered by some US events. We have seen the Millennium organise great tournaments and have probably been spoiled.

Chris (as I read it) believes that US events are only as good as they are because the money they generate does not allow for better tournaments.

I am merely trying to get him to demonstrate his point of view through examples for once, we can demonstrate it's possible by looking at Millennium events, or perhaps he feels they are fiction and don't actually happen.
 
Dragged back in...

I'd just like to make it clear that I am not anti-PSP or Pro-NPPL - and I think I speak for tha other posters here - I'm just pro Paintball.

Chris, forget for a moment about the glaring fact that Millennium can achieve tha standard we want in the States, despite operating with far less income than NPPL/PSP; forget about toilets; forget about cow pastures; forget about bleachers; and think on this.

Me and my team have paid our entry to tha World Cup, the most prestigious event in Paintball. We have booked time off work, flights, hotels etc., we have practised hard and we are psyched.

ALL we want is the opportunity to test ourselves against the best on a level playing field - no more, no less.

We arrive at the event, having spent out well in excess of $10,000 to see four judges on some fields and hear the organizers sending out a PA message asking for people to volunteer to ref, adding tha caveat that no previous experience is necessary.

Do I have the right to be pissed?

Is this acceptable for ANY event, let alone the world's biggest, which has been in existence for years and years?

Forget excuses, forget mitigating circumstances - that is my team's main event of tha Paintball year up in smoke - all that time, all that money, wasted.

Inexcusable. Period.
 
R

raehl

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WEll...

It's 5 AM, so I'm not going to go down a detailed list of what world cup costs right now - even if I did, I'd be guessing at a lot of the numbers (for example, I don't know what PSP really pays to have people pick up players' garbage, or what the rental costs this year were. And even if I *DID* know, it's not my place to air PSP's business.) But having crunched the numbers before, I've made the determination that I want nothing to do with promotioning a national series. I *DO* know almost exactly how much we spent on the one X Ball field, and I will say that that number makes me even more amazed that PSP can function as a business.


As for TJ's comment:

Do you have the right to be pissed? Absolutely. Is it possible for it to have been any better? I don't think so, especially not at the price you were paying.

I don't think there is anything PSP could have done to get more refs. At 12 fields and 8 refs per field, you'd need 96 refs who are QUALIFIED to ref World Cup. Where do you find 96 people who are not playing, are qualified to do it, and are willing to take a week off work to do it, for a mere $100/day? Qualified refs are always a pain in the ass to find - in case you havn't noticed, reffing isn't exactly most people's idea of a fun way to spend a saturday - or a thursday to saturday for that matter.

There's another problem: You're expecting World Cup to provide serious athletic competition, when it's run as an entertainment event. Anyone who wants to can pay the entry and play - when that's your target market, you set your pricing to provide the srvices that are gong to maximize your profits. 60-80% of the teams at World Cup are quite fine with the reffing they had, or at least fien enough that they'd rather not pay extra money for something better. The top teams are never going to get the level of service they want and are willing to pay for as long as it's open entry for the bottom teams and they're ruining the equation - a league trying to be all things to all people is never going to be what the top teams want. But paintball folks seem to ahve the notion that everyone should have a shot at playing the best, despite the fact that it's not condusive to running REAL athletic competition.


Want good reffing and services? Stop letting any group of 10 players with $1750 play. not that it'll ever happen, people are already bitching that X Ball is making a paintball elite that excludes the average player, when the whole point is to get rid of the average player!


On the Millenium comparison: It's not a valid comparison. Millenium runs with a smaller number of teams on smaller fields with a smaller number of players per team. When you double the size of the events, you much more than double the cost of the events. You might have a leg to stand on if even S7 was able to do events like Millenium is - but even with those same advantages millenium has, S7 *STILL* has to charge more to pull it off. If you guys were right, and running events stateside the same way millenium does it were so easy, wouldn't S7 be doing it?

I'll admit to not being precisely sure why there's a difference - but it's there. "Millenium does it" is not an argument for why PSP or S7 should be able to do it. You can't compare a 200 team 10-man event with a 130 team 7-man event. Totally different animals - 2,000 players vs. 1000 players.




Anyway, the only way any of this is going to REALLY change is if people throw out all the stupid ways paintball does things and forms a REAL athletic league with a finite number of teams. Not good enough to make one of the finite number of teams? Tough. Then you take your best refs and your best financed teams and you have a real league instead of letting the tournament playing masses water down the top level of competition.


But as it stands, there's more money in providing OK events for a lot of moderate level players than there is in providing spectacular events for a small number of top-level players. So when everyone plays in the same event, moderate is what you get.


- Chris
 
>>>Do you have the right to be pissed? Absolutely. Is it possible for it to have been any better? I don't think so, especially not at the price you were paying.

Surely, explicitly and implicitly, the events promise those things at that price? Someone with tha info hook me up here - what did NPPL/PSP promise when it came to judging? And how come some PSP events run fine, like Chi-Town?

And if tha answer is 'cos they have fewer teams', then World Cup should have accepted fewer teams...you can't take tha extra money then complain you have too many teams to do things right.

Here's an idea - cap tha number of teams, increase entry fees and do it right. After all, what would teams rather do - pay $12,000 all-in and leave World Cup feeling betrayed, bitter and dejected, or pay $13,000 for a good experience?
 

headrock6

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Jun 5, 2002
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1.1 FIELD STAFFING

1.11. Each five player game field shall be staffed by a minimum of four field judges (including the ultimate judge), and each ten player game field shall be staffed by a minimum of six field judges (including the ultimate judge).


Like TJ said Chris,just give me what they say is gonna be included in the price,no more,no less..


Im not asking for solid gold bunkers or even chariot rides to the fields,just the bare necessities would be nice
 

Wadidiz

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Originally posted by headrock6
1.1 FIELD STAFFING

1.11. Each five player game field shall be staffed by a minimum of four field judges (including the ultimate judge), and each ten player game field shall be staffed by a minimum of six field judges (including the ultimate judge).


Like TJ said Chris,just give me what they say is gonna be included in the price,no more,no less..


Im not asking for solid gold bunkers or even chariot rides to the fields,just the bare necessities would be nice
And y'all know what I'm gonna be saying at this point: even the minimums in NPPL are too few. 4 judges to cover 10 players in this climate of high-paced concept ball and all the systematized cheating that goes on? Just an invitation for the best cheaters to win. 6 to cover 20? Ditto.

But the main thing is how are we ever going to be able to depend on any minimum amount if there is no enforcement of the minimums and no way to enforce them anyway?

Contrast that with Millennium where 8 refs are required for 7-player and the teams get 0 points if they don't bring 8 players to their reffing field. That alone must make a big difference in ref quality.

Steve
 
R

raehl

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Oh, I agree wholeheartedly that there SHOULD have been the rrequired number of refs, and players should not be happy about not getting them, my point is merely that if we want to have that number of refs at World Cup, we need to charge more, cut the number of teams, and/or put money into explicitly training people to ref.

There should be enough refs per field, no doubt - I'm just trying to say it's nt so much of an oversight as a huge general problem.

As for Chicago, because Ground Zero reffed chicago and didn't ref World Cup. That's a 4 team swing in reffing numbers, or 40+ refs.


- Chris
 

Wadidiz

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Originally posted by raehl
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly that there SHOULD have been the rrequired number of refs, and players should not be happy about not getting them, my point is merely that if we want to have that number of refs at World Cup, we need to charge more, cut the number of teams, and/or put money into explicitly training people to ref.

There should be enough refs per field, no doubt - I'm just trying to say it's nt so much of an oversight as a huge general problem.

As for Chicago, because Ground Zero reffed chicago and didn't ref World Cup. That's a 4 team swing in reffing numbers, or 40+ refs.


- Chris
Excuse me if I've missed it in the ocean of words, but what is your answer for how Millennium has been able to do it continuously for about 3 years now? And don't give me any crock about it being more expensive in America than Europe because that would be pile and I know better (and you should).

Steve
 

headrock6

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Originally posted by raehl
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly that there SHOULD have been the rrequired number of refs, and players should not be happy about not getting them, my point is merely that if we want to have that number of refs at World Cup, we need to charge more, cut the number of teams, and/or put money into explicitly training people to ref.

There should be enough refs per field, no doubt - I'm just trying to say it's nt so much of an oversight as a huge general problem.

As for Chicago, because Ground Zero reffed chicago and didn't ref World Cup. That's a 4 team swing in reffing numbers, or 40+ refs.


- Chris
Chris,your post is sure to put a few smile on a couple of faces around here as it seems your moving in the right direction in regards to responses;)

And to be honest,i dont care how you get the refs there,just make sure its done...If it means higher entry fees,so be it..I dont think most players would be that upset at higher fees if they knew they were getting a better product for it..And how much higher are we talking here??Im sure its not gonna force that many to get second or third jobs...

One problem is that strict guidelines need to be layed out in regards to Reffing and followed very harshly...Refs for each event should be chosen as soon as possible so if problems do arise,a solution can be found before the last minute or in some cases not at all....Let the top Novice teams ref again..If it means splitting up Pro teams and mixing in some novs with em so be it...Ill be willing to share in thier growing pains if it means they will learn that much quicker..
 

Beaker

Hello again
Jul 9, 2001
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Originally posted by raehl

As for Chicago, because Ground Zero reffed chicago and didn't ref World Cup. That's a 4 team swing in reffing numbers, or 40+ refs.
But then there are 40 ref's who ref Chicago as GZ "replaced" them

And as GZ are Jerry's own squad, it shouldn't really come as any suprise come the start of the tournament.

If you can't do it properly, cap the teams at the point that you can.