Millennium - Value for money??

[Chicago]

Re: Bah.

Originally posted by duffistuta
Without the teams who are not up to the task attending, there is no money to provide a fitting top level of competition yet...Paintball's very own, self-imposed vicious circle.

If you got rid of 80% of the teams, you could put one or two fields someplace much cheaper/better and have top-notch reffing.

What if you put one or two fields in the middle of a downtown area?


But, as it stands, there are apparently plenty of people willing to pay to go on the paintball vacation. If you're not there to win, yu're just going to have to accept that you're a tourist. There isn't much difference between someone who spends 600 to go to Amsterdam and go to the museums during the day and party at night and someone who spends 600 to go to amsterdam and play paintball during the day and party at night.

Complaining that it costs 600 euros a person to play a millenium event is like complaining that it costs 600 euros a person to visit the Eiffel Tower or Berlin Wall. Is the 10 bucks to take the elevator to the top of the eiffel tower too much because it cost you 590 to get there?


Anyone who thinks even 20% of the people at a Millenium, PSP or NPPL tournament are there to compete in a sport hasn't been to the bars on Friday.

 

[duffistuta]

You'll get no argument from me on any of that Chicago...as I said, it's self-imposed...

Comrade Loco mooted a small league like you suggest owned by the top teams, organised by the top teams, run by the top teams, negating the need for an organiser to make a profit, and providing teams ownership - which in turn puts a fresh spin on all the ramping/semi problems ("What, undermine the credibility of our own league by running dodgy guns all the time? **** tat, that'll hit us in the pocket when we come to pitch to Budwesier...") etc.

 

[Baca Loco]

Re: Re: Bah.

Originally posted by Chicago
But, as it stands, there are apparently plenty of people willing to pay to go on the paintball vacation. If you're not there to win, yu're just going to have to accept that you're a tourist.

Maybe, maybe not. Call them tourists, call them customers--they still have reasons why they choose to go and expectations as to what they will get out of going. In essence most are going for "the experience of participating." Which puts it squarely on the promotors shoulders to provide an experience that most will want to do again if they want repeat business.

The move away from 10 games was a huge mistake, particularly after a season of discontent. It was the one positive that separated the MS from the NPPL should it come down to competing for those future "tourist" dollars [Euros, etc.]

 

[Chicago]

Re: Re: Re: Bah.

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Maybe, maybe not. Call them tourists, call them customers--they still have reasons why they choose to go and expectations as to what they will get out of going. In essence most are going for "the experience of participating." Which puts it squarely on the promotors shoulders to provide an experience that most will want to do again if they want repeat business.

The move away from 10 games was a huge mistake, particularly after a season of discontent. It was the one positive that separated the MS from the NPPL should it come down to competing for those future "tourist" dollars [Euros, etc.]

I agree entirely - if and when NPPL shows up on the European scene, a lot of decisions that have not been made in the past because they were risky or uncomfortable will suddenly look a lot more attractive to make, same as in the US when the leagues split.

The people who benefit from competition are always the tourists ... er, customers.

 

[Intheno]

Not sure if I agree about the 'tourist' idea.

Take MOD as an example. They were a mediocre Div 3 team last year. The classic 'tourist team' you guys are describing. Since then they have bumped up 3 times, and are competing in semi-pro in Denver, with 2 new MOD teams in Div 1 and 2. They could be a top 3 Div one team and win some dollars, but bumped up to make the cut for next season knowing they have next to no chance of winning. They have a training facility with 2 fields etc, they train every weekend. Are they tourists?
Is 'tourist' not just a belittling term used by people who consider themselves more important than the 'lesser' teams?
Take Circle Factory as another example - same sort of thing. I would not consider them tourists either. They have a budget, they intend to do well, if they do (2nd in Tampa) they are serious competitors, if they don't, are they tourists too?

Are Rage (who likely won't place at an event this year and could be relegated) more or less touristy than Wicked, who are a top Div One team and won HB, but are 20 places lower than Rage?

What is the cut off for tourist teams? 5th?

What about Joy Division? Tourists or non-tourists?

Is it not more important how these teams view themselves, and what their ultimate goals are, than how they are looked down upon by others?
Maybe I am laboring the tourist thing, but if I was in a team with ambition and had someone label me like that I wouldn't be happy. Especially if I was actively playing at a higher level than the guy writing the label.

Personally, I think that if no-one used the extra field for games (which they could have played against anyone) then no-one really has a reason to grumble about the reduction in games. If the practice field was booked solid, it would be a different story.

 

[KEN@AFGM]

Vote with your feet...

As a so called tourist the value for money thing was a big decider for the team this year.

Last two years running A Few Good Men have made it abroad. Not this year though Cus and i quote

"How much f**k that for 8 games!?!?!"

When its touch and go if you can afford to attend thats been the deciding factor for us this year. Don't know whether its stopped others. Anyway hopefully next year they'll be two big legs in the UK (NPPL and Millennium ) and then going abroad really starts to look financially naff.


Ken

 

[Intheno]

OK, scratch my previous post. Now I know what you mean by tourist. Its more a european thing, and by european, I mean British (but only in this case)

 

[Dougal]

Chicago

We spent about £600 (not EUROS) each to play Amsterdam and not a party in sight. We went with some hope of making the finals, but it didn't work out, so my opinion is that it was not good value.

Are we 'tourists'? No, I don't think so. We are honest ballers who want to attend the big events, and try our best to make the cut.
We have been to the finals before, so our intention and desire was to do so again.

My original post is based on the fact that I can see no valid reason, from a customer perspective, to reduce the games and not reduce the price proportionately. Personally I'd rather pay the higher price with 10 games. I don't accept your point that the tournament is not about entertaining, and only about getting a winner. The MS promoters are surely interested in ensuring that ALL the teams that don't win, i.e the vast majority, feel part of the event, enloy it and want to return.

There is only one 'big' series in Europe, and so I look forward to a time (hopefully soon) when we customers have a choice to make in terms of big series. A monopoly situation tends to mean that the service provider can choose unilaterally what he/she offers to customers, who have Hobson's choice - either buy or not. The lack of a real choice in this case means that most 'ballers will accept what is on offer.

My team, Escarmouche, because of geography, costs and Politics (with a big 'P'), chooses to attend MS and we thoroughly enjoy the series.

On a final note, I was unaware that a field was available on Sunday - did anyone see it being advertised????
In any case, could we have afforded to pay for the paint?

Dougal

 

[Chicago]

Chicago

Originally posted by Dougal
We spent about £600 (not EUROS) each to play Amsterdam and not a party in sight. We went with some hope of making the finals, but it didn't work out, so my opinion is that it was not good value.

So did you go to COMPETE, or did you go to get playing time?

If you went to COMPETE, then Millenium gave you exactly what you paid for: A chance at 1st place, some prizes, and some exposure. You lost. That it only took 8 games to determine that you didn't get prizes instead of 10 games is inconsequential. If you determine that this is not a good value, then you should reevaluate whether your team is, in fact, an international-level tournament team.

You said it yourself: It wasn't good value not because there were only 8 prelim games, it wasn't good value because you didn't win. Which would imply it WOULD have been good value if you had won, and I'd guess that PRIOR to the event, the 600 pounds per person for the CHANCE of winning was also an acceptable value.

But it's sports, and somebody has to lose, and this time it was you. That doesn't mean the number of preliminary games is suddenly wrong.


If you went there to get playing time, and you don't think you're getting enough bang for your buck, then stop going. I think the "big three" leagues should be about COMPETITION, not giving whoever wants to pay an entry fee a chance to play in/near a stadium.

 

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Intheno
Not sure if I agree about the 'tourist' idea.

Take MOD as an example. They were a mediocre Div 3 team last year. The classic 'tourist team' you guys are describing. Since then they have bumped up 3 times, and are competing in semi-pro in Denver, with 2 new MOD teams in Div 1 and 2. They could be a top 3 Div one team and win some dollars, but bumped up to make the cut for next season knowing they have next to no chance of winning. They have a training facility with 2 fields etc, they train every weekend. Are they tourists?

Obviously not. Tourist has nothing to do with how well you do. It has to do with why you are there. If your chief concern is whether or not you make the semi-finals, you're there to compete. If your chief concern is whether it takes you 8 games or 10 games to not make the semi-finals, then you're a tourist.

MOD isn't there to play a certain amount of games. They're there to win. See the difference?