Maxs Masters - Finals & various problems

[Joern Windler]

Originally posted by Robbo


I think this section from your post just about sums up the rest because what you are saying is downright stupid, I don't care how the guns were found to be hot, any gun firing hot on the field of play is not only dangerous but also cheating and should be penalised......and u say it was a bad mistake in not taking them all off...u gotta be kiddin me ?
Robbo

So your doing the same mistake as the committee did on the masters. You donnt stay within the rules. Youre creating your own ones.

If its said on the captians meeting, that there is no chronoing after the game. Its like that. That might be a bad idea, but its like that.
And IF theres a chornoing after the end of the game, you CANNOT penalize it.

Thats it.
It doesnt matters whats goood, whats evil.
Its in the rules. Thats the point.

think about it.

I really believe Im right. Also if Im not a "Pro".

Joern

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by windler

So your doing the same mistake as the committee did on the masters. You donnt stay within the rules. Youre creating your own ones.
If its said on the captians meeting, that there is no chronoing after the game. Its like that. That might be a bad idea, but its like that.
And IF theres a chornoing after the end of the game, you CANNOT penalize it.
Thats it.
It doesnt matters whats goood, whats evil.
Its in the rules. Thats the point.
think about it.
I really believe Im right. Also if Im not a "Pro".
Joern

The fact that you are not a 'Pro' has nothing to do with anything.
The captains meeting did include a resolution to not chrono at the end of the game but I'm afraid it became obvoius to some judges that perhaps an end of game chronograph was needed.
Now if we uphold people's safety as the number one consideration and not the adherence to some resolution at a captain's meeting then on finding the Ton Tons guns dangerous, they should be duly penalised, no argument !!!
What would you rather have Joern, adherence to a pre tournament guideline or some guys eye shot out ?
A drastic and perhaps dramatic choice I know but nonetheless relevant and possible.
Robbo

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by windler

So your doing the same mistake as the committee did on the masters. You donnt stay within the rules. Youre creating your own ones.
If its said on the captians meeting, that there is no chronoing after the game. Its like that. That might be a bad idea, but its like that.
And IF theres a chornoing after the end of the game, you CANNOT penalize it.
Thats it.
It doesnt matters whats goood, whats evil.
Its in the rules. Thats the point.
think about it.
I really believe Im right. Also if Im not a "Pro".
Joern

The fact that you are not a 'Pro' has nothing to do with anything.
The captains meeting did include a resolution to not chrono at the end of the game but I'm afraid it became obvious to some judges that perhaps an end of game chronograph was needed.
Now if we uphold people's safety as the number one consideration and not the adherence to some resolution at a captain's meeting then on finding the Ton Tons guns dangerous, they should be duly penalised, no argument !!!
What would you rather have Joern, adherence to a pre tournament guideline or some guys eye shot out ?
A drastic and perhaps dramatic choice I know but nonetheless relevant and possible.
Robbo

 

[manike]

I agree with Robbo. Chronoing at any point whatsoever is valid if there is a safety concern, and obviously there was one here as the guns were hot!

You should be able to chrono a gun at any time/point whatsoever when in or around a game situation. This is not just about the rules it's about safety and our sport.

If people are getting around the chronoing on and having hot guns at the end of a game then we need to be able to chrono them at the end of the game also. That's just common sense isn't it?

manike

 

[Joern Windler]

Originally posted by Robbo


The fact that you are not a 'Pro' has nothing to do with anything.
The captains meeting did include a resolution to not chrono at the end of the game but I'm afraid it became obvoius to some judges that perhaps an end of game chronograph was needed.
Now if we uphold people's safety as the number one consideration and not the adherence to some resolution at a captain's meeting then on finding the Ton Tons guns dangerous, they should be duly penalised, no argument !!!
What would you rather have Joern, adherence to a pre tournament guideline or some guys eye shot out ?
A drastic and perhaps dramatic choice I know but nonetheless relevant and possible.
Robbo

Sorry for that with the non-pro ...
Youre right if you want the players getting chroned for their own safety as many times as possible.
But imho rule stays rule.
And if theres a rule (no matter if its written down or only on a website and announced on the captains meeting) not to chrono at the end of the game. Its like that. Im sure that youre able to change lots of rules with the safety argument. But in my opinion thats not the way it goes.

First, when I heard about the hotgun (average 309) I absolutely was your opinion. Safety first! But if the rule commission deceided to get rid of the chronoing after the game and doing in-game-chronoing instead, thats fine, too. (And this decision was -only- repeated on the tc meeting.)
Otherwise I must be able to chrone players also when the scoresheets are already done and the player has already left the field .. his gun might have been be hot, too. And in that case I believe youre going to say .. "no man, thats too late.".
But what is "late" if its a safety issue ?!
Changing rules during a tournament is a mistake (except if there is a BIG safety problem). But this its not, cause we still have the on-field-chronoing.

You might know, that it is planned (or already implemented?) not to do the chroning after the end of the game anymore and so the section with the penalty points gets kickted. This means, that you have to do a statement towards the millennium rules commission that this is not going to happen (and there might - as you mentioned - very good reasons therefore).
So go on!
There are only 3 weeks until Lisbon.


Joern.


PS: I dont know wheres the difference if somebodies eyes got shot if the one who did it receives 50 penalty points therefore or not. The hot gun was already there. I believe we still have to do the pre-game chronographing with every player to make sure the gun's not hot in the beginning and the on-field-chronoing to make sure that nobody increases the velocity on the field. And it might be the right way to give at least a two4one or something instead of "just" eliminating the player. (But I dont think it is necessary to do the after game chronoing. Let me know if there are good reasons fo it. )

 

[Joern Windler]

Originally posted by manike
I agree with Robbo. Chronoing at any point whatsoever is valid if there is a safety concern, and obviously there was one here as the guns were hot!

You should be able to chrono a gun at any time/point whatsoever when in or around a game situation. This is not just about the rules it's about safety and our sport.

If people are getting around the chronoing on and having hot guns at the end of a game then we need to be able to chrono them at the end of the game also. That's just common sense isn't it?

manike

But WHY the hell did nobody said this on the captainsmeeting ?!?
(do youve been there?)
In "former" times "we" chronoed not everyone, but just eg 2 or 3 of every team after the game. If you think it is necessary to chrono after the end of the game (where the unsafe situation is already over) it might be a good idea to chrono all players before and afterwards.
And if you are thinking like this (which might be a good idea),

Why didnt you wrote this years ago?!

That doesnt make sense .. in my opinion. Or it was a severe mistake.

Anyway. After the end of the game the unsafe situation is over.
Now were going to chron every player before the game and more player during the game as we did before at the end of the game. I believe this is a good improvement.
But I would like to punish the hotguns even harder than its in the rules right now.


joern

 

[manike]

Joern I wasn't at the captains meeting so I don't know what was said there. I am just saying that I condone the after game chronoing in this instance because it obviously caught a problem.

What I would like to see is:-

1) Everyone chrono onto the field.

2) People randomly checked during play...

3) and then a dedicated marshal that chrono's every player as they are eliminated. If it is done properly I don't think it would slow down the game turnovers much if at all. This means as soon as a player is eliminated he gets chronoed before he has chance to do anything else.

4) I also think that at the end of the game the refs should chrono people as they check them to be clean.

If all refs had a hand held chrono (or maybe 2 or 3 of them per field) then it would only be very quick for them to check a player then have them fire 3 shots over the hand held. I doubt it would slow down the game at all but it would make it very hard for anyone to cheat and try to have higher velocities.

It would take a few more hand held chrono's to implement but If done properly it would not take much extra time and it would work... I think

manike

 

[Robbo]

Joern, I have no idea where you are coming from in all this because all I can see is you are being so pedantic about the 'letter of the law' and sacrificing the much more important consideration of people's safety to pursue it.
I don't give two ****s how many times they chrono a gun, the more the merrier in my book because I know, out there, there are people who will cheat and swindle at the drop of a hat and if we can build in enough deterrents, before the game, during the game and after the game, then that sounds good to me.
You can stuff your rule book up your ass mate, cuz if you get anywhere near me with a rule book, ranting on about its integrity being upheld when people are out on the field going up against hot guns BECAUSE of your rule book, then its gonna be used as a suppository....but not on me !!!!!!

Robbo

 

[Matski]

lol

Originally posted by Robbo
Joern, I have no idea where you are coming from in all this because all I can see is you are being so pedantic about the 'letter of the law' and sacrificing the much more important consideration of people's safety to pursue it.
I don't give two ****s how many times they chrono a gun, the more the merrier in my book because I know, out there, there are people who will cheat and swindle at the drop of a hat and if we can build in enough deterrents, before the game, during the game and after the game, then that sounds good to me.
You can stuff your rule book up your ass mate, cuz if you get anywhere near me with a rule book, ranting on about its integrity being upheld when people are out on the field going up against hot guns BECAUSE of your rule book, then its gonna be used as a suppository....but not on me !!!!!!

Robbo

That reply needs to be framed and hung on a wall somewhere, especially the end bit.

Seriously though Joern, the format of the game now means players take allot more point blank shots than they used to. Aswell as this bunkering has got more technical, people have a tendancy to 'spin' on a player mugging them to try for a 141. This has meant that players will aim for the gogs or 'go for skin' when bunkering someone.

Would you be happy to take multiple shots to the gogs and neck from a gun running hot, say 350fps?

It only takes one player to have their lense fail on them big time and the world will turn around and say "holy sh!t, that sport aint safe! Ban it"

Stop trying to argue technicalities when safety is involved.

cya out there, mattd.

 

[Buddha 3]

Joern,

From what you say I get the feeling you mean well when it comes to the safety issue. But when the rules are concerned, you have a very strong 'Befehl ist Befehl' attitude (Which is to be expected from a German...don't worry, that's a joke).
Another point for you to consider: Yes, the rules are there for a reason. BUT it also says that the rules as published (and downloadable) from the millenium website are THE rules as they stand. So when it comes to strictly adhering to the rules, which set of rules is right? After all, they might also say at a captain's meeting that scoring a hit on an opponent doesn't count...
At some point common sense has to take over.
I'm afraid you are on your own...