Joy Masters field design...

[manike]

Inflammatory......

Originally posted by Nick Iuel-Brockdorff
- The significance of the field designs Magued & co. made was not that people were getting shot on the breakout - it was that the back bunkers weren't as dominant once you had made it there, meaning back players had to take quick secondaries to be effective..... and THAT is what aggressive paintball is all about - not only in the interest of the players, but CERTAINLY also in the interest of spectators and media !

Now that's something I agree with. I was coming at the same thing from a slightly different approach.

We want back players involved in the game, not removed from it.

I wish I'd been there

manike

 

[jeff]

Just another thought...

The Joy Masters, along with all the other Millennium events, is an "Open" tournament.

You do not have to play qualifying events in order to play.

Therefore you should cater for all levels of play.

If people want the sport to develop into a truly professional one then the events structure has to be changed, which I have no problem with. I would have had no problem with the fields in Sweden if Magued had said to everyone well in advance what sort of event he was trying to hold. He didn't, and nor do any of the other promoters. We as players pay our entrance fees and then have to cross our fingers as to what we get for our money. It could be great.......Toulouse is a prime example, or it ould be a dissapointment. If it is not satisfactory what can we do. We can't get our money back and complaints are very rarely dealt with by the promoters. Afterall, they have made there money and all will be forgotten about by the time the next event comes around. If you want a fully pro series then run one. If you want to run "Open" tournaments then do that but don't try and do both.

Alternatively if you run an open but discriminate against the unfit or recreational players (most Novice teams are recreational Teams), then you have to structure the event around a handicap system as they do in Golf, where the average players can play along side the true Pros and still have a chance of winning.

e.g Pro V Nov games where the Pros have to start with their guns behind their primary bunkers. ( breaking out without guns untill they reach there primaries). This way a Nov team could get some eliminations of the break and force the play...........

mmmmmm....................



Jeff

 

[Liz]

Jeff has a good point about open tournaments; if the promoters want the lower level teams they hasve to cater for them to some degree. And understand this, at present they NEED the Ams & novices as there just aren't enough Pro teams around to make it worth their while putting on Pro only tourneys.
In sports that play on empty fields (e.g. soccer, hockey etc) there is no way to change the conditions that suit different levels of play and for those where there IS a way to change stuff round e.g. showjumping, it's not that hard to change the obstacles between classes. By the very nature of the sport & the way a Sup'air field has to be set up, it's very difficult to change the field around between different levels of play, the logistics would be immense unless you set aside different fields for the different levels of teams.
I wasn't at Sweden last weekend but I have gathered from various comments here that the fields were set up to mostly suit very fit pro level teams. There have been other comments in the past about fields that are "levelers", ones that make it a bit of pot luck getting the results. Surely there must be some form of compromise where the set up of a field will reward exciting play but doesn't depend on people having to be able to do 60m in under 5.5 seconds.

Manike is right, one of the reasons I like that game on the DVD is because I can relate to it, and as he says surely this means that other not so fit people can relate to it as well.

And Nick, I'm not overweight & unfit because I can't be bothered or am too lazy to train. I have a badly damaged leg that just can't take the pressures of most fitness training, so I have the choice of getting fitter by working out OR playing up to twice a month, it just won't take any more than that. And I'm not a pig that eats constantly & all the wrong things either. Please don't stereotype people, it's not very nice at all.

 

[goose]

Jeff...

It may be an "open" tournament - but I don't understand this cater to all levels thing.

When you play another Am team, do you not play on the same field? Do you not have the same bunkers to choose from? Do you not play the same number of pro games as the others? Do you not have a separate semi-finals & finals - where there are no pro games?

If all of this is not catering to all levels I don't know what is. The topic about levels was brought up a while back and there where numerous people bitching about the idea to stop the interdivision play and just have Novice play Novice etc. They all said - we like to play the pros - we want to see how good we are etc. etc.. You know what, you can't have it both ways. You either only play teams at your level or you take your lumps with the rest if them when the pro's jump down your throats.

Seems that the other Am teams could get their game plan working, maybe the problem wasn't the fields just your teams way of looking at them. Either that or it's time to evaluate whether or not you have the right manpower to be playing in Europes premier events.

You don't see the Fat Lady's complaining about the field design, but on the other hand they also have been busting their butts in between Toulouse & Joy to improve their game.

Maybe there should be qualification levels that a team must achieve before being allowed to play Millennium tournaments. Maybe it is time that Toulouse be an invitation only tournament where only teams who have achieved a certain level are invited, but until that time - the idea of slowing down the progress of the sport in order to accomadate teams/people who want to maintain the status-quo is not the right way to do things. Either these teams should adapt or get out and play local, lesser prestigious tournaments.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that there is no place for Novice and Am teams in these tournaments - but only for the ones who want to push themselves to be the best, not the ones who just want to have a party/drink some beer & play ball.

goose

 

[goose]

Liz...

I wasn't at Sweden last weekend but I have gathered from various comments here that the fields were set up to mostly suit very fit pro level teams. There have been other comments in the past about fields that are "levelers", ones that make it a bit of pot luck getting the results. Surely there must be some form of compromise where the set up of a field will reward exciting play but doesn't depend on people having to be able to do 60m in under 5.5 seconds.

Like I posted to Jeff - Ams & novices compete against ams in the semis and play the same number of pro games in the prelims

Why should teams who work hard a t getting better than the next team be penalized for that hard work??????

Yes it's nice to attend the big tournaments and try to match up against the big boys - but when I was playing basketball I never thought I deserved to play in the NBA finals. I don't think Buddha ever thought he should be playing American football in the SuperBowl. At least the MS let's Novice and Am teams attend the events and compete in their own divisions, how many more handicapping systems do players want? How about a system that for every player over the age of 35 you get a free wipe from the refs - or every player who can't run without coughing up a lung gets to start the game already in his/her barricade - or every woman who is hit on the chest gets to clean it off because it isn't fair that men don't have breasts.

goose

 

[markh]

as as the player base expands, then fitter, younger players should rise to the top, especially when coupled with longer break smaller back bunker fields. But this expansion, is going to be limited by the ability to play(pay) of the players, normally older players will have more money, so can afford to go abroad and play more than younger players.

So we have big bunkers at the back, now small bunkers at the back, how about a big bunker and small bunker at the back, or complete random fields. With experience, we will find different patterns of field produce different types of game. Many field designs will be boring, but some will lead to interesting play. A good team should be able to play all types of field.

My team played Stockholm. and found the fields interesting. I played Campaign 2001, and found the shorter fields more fun as aggressive play was easier.

I'd like to see fields of different layouts. Perhaps a snake at the back, but then you should play the same team
twice, but from different ends.

just some thoughts.

 

[NIALL]

Got to take issue with your elitism Nick.

Unfortunately if it was not for the minions who only want to indulge in the "craic" of just being there, you wouldn't have a tournament for all you fantastic sportsmen to indulge yourselves in.

I believe that the M/S and NPPL to a lesser extent are participation events where all that is required to play is a team that is up for it, Its ability is not important.

Sure the winners will wallow in the Glory at the prize giving ceremony. The others will watch, maybe a tad envious but thinking "one day that could be me".

Why relegate them to lesser events because they do not fit your bill as a perfect baller. Its their valued entries that pay for the event, not yours!

Niall

PS Call me

 

[Liz]

"Liz"

Originally posted by Nick Iuel-Brockdorff
I was not aiming that remark at anyone specifically !

The point is, that if I get hurt or when I get too slow, old, the level of my game decreases, og the general level of play increases past my abilities, etc....... I would still like to play the events, but would accept that I was no longer fit for it, in one way or another - and contend myself with playing at lower level.

It's not like we lack lower level tournaments - we are specifically talking the top level - i.e. Millennium and NPPL here, where you should have to be amongst the "best" to play

Nick

I know you weren't aiming that at me Nick, but I used my own useless body as an example that I know & understand very well.
As Niall says, and I mentioned earlier, there just isn't the player base currently for there to be Pro only tourneys so you need us lower level people who enter just for the fun of it. Of course as time goes by then the Pro events will be dominated by the young fit players, but I fear that's many years down the line from now.
There's still quite a number of older, less fit & even "circumferally enhanced" players out there playing pro & even winning at the moment.

 

[mark.winwood]

but until it is a reconised sport your happy to keep taking us over 35,s money.One further point when paintball is reconised the yanks wont want euros like you any way so your just talking your way out of a hobby because lets face it thats what it is and for most of us who work and play at the weekend it will always be

 

[Buddha 3]

Great discussion this....

Like I said, I welcome any change that promotes aggressive play. As far as I can see it, the point that lower level teams suffer at the fields discussed, is obsolete. I think someone mentioned before, but I'm not sure, so here goes: Since a novice team is only competing (not playing, but competing) against teams that are of the same level, how can they be effected any worse from these fields than the other teams? Makes no sense. Okay, it would kinda suck if you, as a backplyer, get shot out at the break constantly, but I can't imagine this happening. It has been stated that there were bunkers for the backplayers to get to, but that they were in unusual positions, yet still plenty towards the rear of the field. It's hard enough to sweetspot someone off the break that's coming to the 50, so I really hardly can see it happening to a guy that stays at the back end of the field.

Oh, and Nike would be more than happy to sponsor lardasses, just as long (like Goose said) as they have game. I bet if some soccer team came up with a centre forward that weighs a ton, but plays like he's Johan Cruyff, he'd get sponsored no problem...
It's easy to do, but it's wrong to mistake physical appearance with physical ability. Ask my wife. I may be 275lbs, but I'm still very bendy. (okay, I guess you guys did not want to know that)