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Irony of the Day (warning: non-PB subject)

Liz

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Jan 17, 2002
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Originally posted by Ben Frain
Feck it, I know I said I'd leave it but I just can't...

Why is it so hard to understand. Bottom line is I don't give an arse about the specifics of a religion nor do I give a squirt about colour.

The only issue I have is integration. All this 'we have been living as one big happy family for the last 50 years' is garbage. I take it you don't live in Oldham?

I just expect people to abide by the adage 'When in Rome, do as the Roman's do' - that's all. For example I don't want english schools speaking different languages than english - where's the integration in that? How does that make us a community? Why is that so unreasonable?

What cracks me up is all you lefties watch Farenheit 9/11 and just because Michael Moore tells you something you think it must be true. You think it makes you intellectually superior in some way to sit in the middle of issues with no plan or solution to the problems at hand.

I'm not saying there aren't things that are utter tosh on both sides of the fence but please, just because aunty beeb gives you a opinion to have, doesn't mean I have to swallow it.

You are guilty of exactly the same ignorance and wholehearted acceptance of others opinions and spin that you accuse me of.
Ben, try to be a LITTLE less all encompassing in your posts. You just implied that everyone else who posted here is a lefty who believes what Auntie Beeb tells us - well think a bit harder about MY post. Then read my sig - no, it's not a joke I really mean it. You want to follow stuff like "when in Rome" - go back far enough & you'll see that our current values are nothing like they were 1500-1600 years ago, they were imposed on the population of this island by a very small minority of the powerful following THEIR religious beliefs. All cultures change over the years according to how their population changes.

I understand about areas where there is a problem with integration of racial minorities, I used to work very near to Brixton in the years before the riots there. But at the same time, I've worked with, for or been a manager to people of many different colours, cultures and religions and the vast, and I mean vast, majority of these people just want to live their lives in peace. Don't make the mistake of judging the silent majority by the actions and words of the radical few.

Due to public ignorance and people listening to the media, I have been accused in the past of being a Satanist, of promoting sacrifice of babies, putting curses on people and of being just downright evil. Whatever I do must be wicked by definition, even if it is doing good for others and causing no harm to anyone. Apparently I have no chance of not burning in the fires of a hell I don't even believe in. So do you now understand why I jump to the defence of people being pigeonholed on the basis of someone's incomplete understanding of their beliefs? You have met me Ben - did I really strike you as someone evil through and through? But listen to the general public's idea of "people like me" and that is what I am.

Edit: BTW, I have also not seen Farenheit 9/11 and have no wish to, and find most conspiracy theorists a source of entertainment
 

Flash-Bugout

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Jul 6, 2001
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Originally posted by Ben Frain
I just expect people to abide by the adage 'When in Rome, do as the Roman's do' - that's all.
So if you were to go on holiday to a Muslin country you would abstain from alcohol, and dress up your wife in a full burkha?

Originally posted by Ben Frain
For example I don't want english schools speaking different languages than english - where's the integration in that?
Do you mean schools shouldn't teach foreign languages? Or do you mean english schools speaking a non-english language as it's primary language?

If it's the latter, fair enough, I agree. You move to a country, you should at least make the effort to learn the language. If it's the primary, then I say, yeah, whatever.

Originally posted by Ben Frain
What cracks me up is all you lefties watch Farenheit 9/11 and just because Michael Moore tells you something you think it must be true. You think it makes you intellectually superior in some way to sit in the middle of issues with no plan or solution to the problems at hand.
What cracks me up is these righties watch Farenheit 9/11 and just because Micael Moore says something you think there is no truth in there whatsoever. Sure, he overdramatises and sensationalises things, but he does have the odd point. And I don't recall seeing your solution to the "problems at hand" (which are what exactly?)

I've got a much longer rant on some of the subjects of integration and religion and what not to come later (damn work ;) )
 

Ben Frain

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Sep 7, 2002
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Originally posted by duffistuta
Last time we argued - 'cheat' boards - I'm sure you admitted that you felt you were intellectually superior and had a right to tell others what to do?

And if you would perhaps explain exactly what the 'problems at hand' are then we could discuss them. Frankly, I don't see any, apart from bigotry and intolerance by various minority groups across the political and religious spectrum, and I don't see how that is in any way different to what's been going on for thousands of years.

What, specifically, are you annoyed about?

Oh, and I haven't seen Farrenheit 9/11, thanks.
Duffistuta - I'm not annoyed about anything in particular. I was just saying that my general problem with liberalism in that it argues against everyone else's ideas but seems to have little concrete plans of it's own.

If you want to be specific how do you think we (and retrospectively how could the Netherlands have handled) can better deal with the integration of Muslim's (and the same for any other immigrants) into the existing communities?? I would like to see citizenship classes that are mandatory and a scoring system for immigrants based on the Australian model... What do you think?

Hermitt - is this going to be a qualifications pissing contest now then? I have a degree in media too, what does that matter?? I'd be shocked if degree's were now reflective of one's actual intelligence levels :confused:

I also don't have a beef with the people coming over here to seek a different life. I have a beef with the way our government organises it. You just see that I have a right wing view point and through your own ignorance and intolerance immediately assume I am some Nazi thug/neo-nazi whatever you want to call it.

I don't believe they come over here and steal our jobs?? That's the view you think I'll have because you like to think everyone with a right wing point of view on something is a nutcase.
 
Originally posted by HERMITT

The situation in Oldham is not religious or racial. The underlying routes are in urban deprivation and the withdrawal of government funding during the 1980's. It is also due to the displacement of employment through the restructuring of the modern work place. Factories and mines, once the staple industry of the north are no longer there. High unemployment and falling literacy rates have left an area where blame and envy aflict all levels of society. As is the case throughout all of this, people look for someone other than themselves to blame and in this case it is the migrant communities that have moved to these ares for a variety of socio economic reasons that take the brunt.
Have you ever been to Oldham?

The reason for the violence is not deprivation, there are areas of manchester that are a hundred times worse and they dont feel the need for a riot.

The issue is the complete segregation between the main communities.

Whether intentional or not the various religions promote segregation and discrimination.

As long as there is religion there will be segregation and as long as there is segregation there will be violence.
 

Flash-Bugout

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Originally posted by Ben Frain
Muslim's (and the same for any other immigrants)
I think that lumping Muslins and immigrants in one boat is possibly why people are getting their backs up Ben.

Muslim does not equal immigrant. Full stop.

Surely what you are getting at is that you'd like to see the thorny integration issue covered. Which is a very tough cookie - how can you impose your standards on somebody else and still say that you are accepting them and their ways/beliefs?
 
I never thought this would be a qualifications contest, if i did then i would have spent more time looking for 10m backstroke and BAGA awards. I also didnt label you a nazi, nut case is again premature because i have never met you. Narrowminded would be closer to my definition to be honest.

The reason i mentioned what i do and what i studied is so that you may at least try and respect the points that i have raised. You seem to be varrying your line of attack without really understanding your own arguments. And like many people with similar beliefs to your own, you rely solely on genralisations that when challenged soon crumble. Your misguided and naive arguments are what stand in the way of people chilling and getting on with each other. I am not a lefty and i am not a right wing nutter. I do believe in integration and believe that making an effort to be opart of a community is key. I just dont believe in a global terrorist threat that has an evil hench man as its leader. Sounds a little bit too like a James Bond movie for my liking.

If you did a media degree then you will understand how the media and public opinion can be so quickly manipulated. I therefore struggle to see how you can swallow your own shallow rhetoric.
 
D

duffistuta

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Originally posted by Ben Frain
Du

If you want to be specific how do you think we (and retrospectively how could the Netherlands have handled) can better deal with the integration of Muslim's (and the same for any other immigrants) into the existing communities?? I would like to see citizenship classes that are mandatory and a scoring system for immigrants based on the Australian model... What do you think?

I don't see a real problem that needs dealing with when it comes to integration...the Muslims I know integrated into the UK just fine; the areas I have lived in with mixed race communities were all integrated perfectly well in my experience.

With regards immigration, I think there are two issues:

1. Economic migrants.
The UK has an aging population, we need economic migrants or there will be a labour deficit.

2. Refugees
We have a humanitarian responsibility to act as a safe haven for genuine refugees.

I think the current problems, such as they are, are more to do with the dispersal of economic migrants.

Ultimately, I believe in free movement betwen borders, period.