Irony of the Day (warning: non-PB subject)

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by Ben Frain
TJ - the point about the groups though is that the extent of what they get up to is more worrying with the Muslim ones (depending on who you listen to those activities can include dirty bombs, bio-chemical attacks, shoulder mounted destruction of airplanes etc) and you just don't get that level of craziness with the far right groups (unless I am completely misinformed) - in recent history anyway

But look, I've broken my word already so to answer Buddha...

I don't believe I'm wrong, just like you don't believe you are wrong.

Nothing you say will change my mind just as nothing I say will change your mind.

Therefore it is pointless for me to keep ranting away and us to continue disagreeing over different points.

So that's it from me now....honest...roll credits, bring up the house lights...The End...

That's the main difference. I don't believe, I know. My opinion is based on facts, and nothing else.

Let's go through your points:

Dirty bombs: Don't work. Just used as a scare mongering story. Fact is that only the detonation itself would have an effect, as would any bomb. Radiation is next to nothing, certainly less than what the avarage soldier gets exposed to on a daily basis, working with radar equipment and depleted uranium...
Biochem: Yeah right. If they had that, they certainly would not have flown an aircraft into a building. That's probably the most low tech thing you could do.
Shoulder mounted destruction of airplanes: Anybody can get their hands on these. You want a Stinger? There's a good number of people on these boards alone that you could talk to to get that sorted. ****, I could hook you up with a functioning Mig jet fighter. Interested?
Don't get that craziness from the rightwingers? Looked at the Balkans recently? Been to Russia lately? Closer to home then, seen the smoldering schools in Holland lately? All done by the jackboot posse.

As for Cat Steves, he looked the part. If you grow a beard and wear a robe going through customs, you will get stopped too. It's all done om appearance alone...

 

[RoryM]

Blame culture....

It saddens me to hear that personal opinions voiced in art are subject to censure, because a minority (i.e. those that will use violence) will use the threat of violence to stop it.

Most rational people accept these things for what they are, opinions, and if they don't fall into line with what they believe/think, so what.

The problems all start when religion gets involved with politics. If they were kept apart the world would probably be a more peaceful place for it! And the finger for this can be pointed at most religions in history (apart from Hari Krishna, who's going to enter a conflict because of selling books on the street!)

Muslims take the brunt of the political use of fear to control at the moment, in the 70's and 80's in England it was catholics/Irish. These patterns are evident all through history, with the worst recent example being the blame for all Germany's economic problems in the 1930's laid at the feet of the Jewish community.

If politicians stopped using religions/beliefs etc. as political footballs then there influence on our prejudices may well become non-existent, and we could finally just get on with things. like looking for the never ending pie for Piper, and King Pot size Sachets for Ledz, etc, etc, etc.

Ben, don't believe the hype all the time, it just makes us as small minded as the fanatics/extremists, and therefore no one wins.

 

[TNG]

All of you need to go find a bill hicks cd and have a go with it. Good stuff we should all be fortunate to hear.

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by TNG
All of you need to go find a bill hicks cd and have a go with it. Good stuff we should all be fortunate to hear.

QFT, as I believe the young hep cats say...Rant in E Minor is the best place to start, along with the Relentless DVD, but all his albums are works of Godlike genius.

And Rory is right - apparently, we have to have an enemy. The Irish were stigmatised massively in the 70s and 80s over here; America had the Commies to hate...when communism fell they were a bit lost though, and spent a year or two trying to turn computer hackers into Public Enemy No.1 (which was very funny - someone in the administration had obviously read one William Gibson Cyberpunk novel too many) before finding the new group to demonise and thus justify the continued existence of the military-industrial complex.

Personally, I find it funny that Muslims have been here for decades, yet they only became terrorists in the last 3 years. What were they doing for the last 50 years, practicing?

 

[Liz]

As a believer in a religion that (bar possibly the jewish) has probably been the most persecuted over the centuries, I find this thread both sad and funny at the same time.

Rory is right in that the majority seem to need an "enemy", and it's religion that seems to be the favorite trigger for persecution. But if you read the details of whatever holy book a religion is based on, you soon realise that what is being done in the name of that religion isn't actually part of the script.

And I would say that possibly the worst at going against the word of their God and using it as an excuse for oppression is the Christian religion, especially Catholics.

 

[martin]

opps

wrong button

 

[HERMITT]

Well, i wasnt going to say anything. Might just have let this one slip through, but its a quiet day at work and i have little else to do.

If i can start from the top and work my way down that should keep things reasonably clear. First off it is a great shame that a film has been pulled from a screening because of an extremist groups threat of violence. The media has a role in questioning society, and in some cases this will cause offence. But that is a small part to play for raising valid arguments that make us think about the world around us. I do not belive in mocking faiths, only questioning their validity and the methods in which they interpret and carry out their core values. I have not seen submission, but understand that it raises many questions about the islamic faith without mocking it. This is fine by me. There was a recent case in the UK where a play that was put on in Birmingham was over run by Sikhs that found its content offensive. Inn the end the theatre was forced to cancel it. This was a great shame, because by all accounts it was an interesting and thoughful dramatisation.

However, it is not just muslims and funny coloued people that dont like things like submission and the play in birmingham. Us purer than pure holier than thow white people also get offended when people question our 'real' god. Apparently since he's the only one that counts its not right to question his existence and any acts of violence that follow are justified (BBC workers getting attacked because of the Jerry Springer Opera). Get real. Acts of censorship have been instigated on the whole by a right wing neo conservative element on far more occassions than any muslim pressure group.

There have been muslims in Britain for many years as has already been mentioned and they have all been more than forgiving when it comes to acts of racist violence against them. Now all of a sudden because of a group of people with an agenda, all muslims are terrorists. Thats racist propaganda gone mad. Just because they are easier to segregate than catholics or nazis it makes them public enemy number one. This is a war of money and power, not religion. This has been used an excuse, an answer that the average american can understand. We are not fighting a muslim ideology, we are fighting a group of people that have a political agenda, and want to make money. Al qaeda never existed until George Bush gave them that name. They aren't a global organisation. And they pose very little threat to our lives. The biggest threat comes from people like Ben Frain who single a religion out for blame. This only fuels a religious fundamentalism. It is this fundamentalism that the terrorists feed off to disguise there own agendas. This breeds a climate of fear that will help no one.

The Uk is historically a multi cultural land. We are made up of soo many different races that there is no such thing as British, there never was. The fact that the new races that have moved here have different skin is the only thing that separates them from the Jews, Saxons, Romans, Celt, Norse etc etc that have settled here throughout our history. As long as we all believe they hype that the neo conservative, neo christian dominated poltical landscape churns out to justify its existence, then we shall continue to fuel the hatred that obscures the terrorists from the truth of what they really are. People who oppose the freedom of others.

 

[Ben Frain]

Feck it, I know I said I'd leave it but I just can't...

Why is it so hard to understand. Bottom line is I don't give an arse about the specifics of a religion nor do I give a squirt about colour.

The only issue I have is integration. All this 'we have been living as one big happy family for the last 50 years' is garbage. I take it you don't live in Oldham?

I just expect people to abide by the adage 'When in Rome, do as the Roman's do' - that's all. For example I don't want english schools speaking different languages than english - where's the integration in that? How does that make us a community? Why is that so unreasonable?

What cracks me up is all you lefties watch Farenheit 9/11 and just because Michael Moore tells you something you think it must be true. You think it makes you intellectually superior in some way to sit in the middle of issues with no plan or solution to the problems at hand.

I'm not saying there aren't things that are utter tosh on both sides of the fence but please, just because aunty beeb gives you a opinion to have, doesn't mean I have to swallow it.

You are guilty of exactly the same ignorance and wholehearted acceptance of others opinions and spin that you accuse me of.

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Ben Frain


What cracks me up is all you lefties watch Farenheit 9/11 and just because Michael Moore tells you something you think it must be true. You think it makes you intellectually superior in some way to sit in the middle of issues with no plan or solution to the problems at hand.

Last time we argued - 'cheat' boards - I'm sure you admitted that you felt you were intellectually superior and had a right to tell others what to do?

And if you would perhaps explain exactly what the 'problems at hand' are then we could discuss them. Frankly, I don't see any, apart from bigotry and intolerance by various minority groups across the political and religious spectrum, and I don't see how that is in any way different to what's been going on for thousands of years.

What, specifically, are you annoyed about?

Oh, and I haven't seen Farrenheit 9/11, thanks.

 

[HERMITT]

FirsT off, i work in the media. I know what the agendas are and i understand the various options available. I also spent three years doing a media thoery degree so i understand how the various opinions and argumnets are transferred to the public. I currently am looking to do a masters in anti terrorism studies (although cash and job will probably stop this!!). This has given me an insight into the history of the current global terrorist situation.

I am not a lefty and i do not subscribe to any particular news source. But integration comes from tolerance and the acceptance of other peoples beliefs and practices. Helping people to learn English by conversing in their own language first does not breed segregation. The belief in the 'they come over here and steal our jobs' argument is what causes segregation. If you went over to france and they expected you to learn French without the aid of a translation, i think you would be pretty pissed. Everyone that comes to this country realises that they will have to learn English to succeed but this does not mean that they will just suddenly know it. Ironically the English have the lowest foreign language ability in the developed world.

The situation in Oldham is not religious or racial. The underlying routes are in urban deprivation and the withdrawal of government funding during the 1980's. It is also due to the displacement of employment through the restructuring of the modern work place. Factories and mines, once the staple industry of the north are no longer there. High unemployment and falling literacy rates have left an area where blame and envy aflict all levels of society. As is the case throughout all of this, people look for someone other than themselves to blame and in this case it is the migrant communities that have moved to these ares for a variety of socio economic reasons that take the brunt.