Inconsistencies in Toulouse....

[Red_Merkin]

The robot is problematic because it takes a long time to check one gun so only a small percentage of the guns on site can be tested.

you're right, it's not a blanket solution. What i'm suggesting is that we treat it as a final check before overturning games or banning players. The judges still have to evaluate every gun, and if they feel that it's illegal then it gets submitted to the robot for a final scientific check.

Without a scientific way of checking basically we're enforcing serious rules without any definative proof. Imagine if the Police gave you speeding tickets, but didn't use a radar to clock your speed? They might be very good at judging the seed of your car, but where's the absolute proof?

 

[camsmith]

It might for a tournament or two Nick, but not for long.

I reckon that once the science starts being applied, you won't actually have that many players using it. Whether that's because they set up their guns better, or because the judges are better able to judge what's really bouncing (as there is a definitive rule), the result is likely to be the same.

 

[cjansen]

Take the "standard test" out of the rulebook!

Originally posted by fred1
Steve: I think Nick, Claudio and Egi have made some interesting remarks. Care to comment on them?

2) When is the standard gun test procedure going to be rigorously applied when checking for bounce?

BTW, I suggest that for all people who think it is unclear just print page 8 of the Millennium rule book and the next time someone checks your gun for bounce pull out that piece of paper and demand a standard gun test procedure. Stand up fo' yo' Rights!!!

Why is that test procedure even there??? I haven't seen it used once since it was put in the rulebook! Why not just write "the marshall will test the gun until he feels sufficiently satisfied that it is within the rules for trigger pull." Because that's what is going down at the chrono. And I would bet a paycheck that at least 90% or more of the guns that failed, would pass if the test from the rules was applied.

Andy / Steve - Until someone comes up with a legitimate testing procedure, and this procedure makes it into the rule book, just put it out at the captains meeting that you'll test guns as long as you like, in whatever manner you like, with as much of our money (paint) as you like, and we should be prepared for this. It's not as if a player could stop you anyways! You did mention that teams should bring extra paint, but at the same time Andy also said that the standard test in the rules would be used. For the sake of continuity, just put it out in advance that the marshall will shoot it until he/she feels that it's legal. Otherwise it's only going to confuse people and piss them off even more than they already are.

p.s. Andy - Not criticizing your efforts, or anyone in particular, as I thought your field was the most consistent and 100% by the book.

 

[Red_Merkin]

i guess what i ment, is the judges test the guns before they go onto the field. If they think the gun is too bouncy they don't let it on.

Then after the game when they test guns for bounce, and a gun is determined to be bouncy, THEN it goes to the robot.
The next game can get underway, the suspect gun and player are taken to the scrutineer, and the gun is put over the robot.

I suspect that a lot of guns (e-blades in particular) that have a lot of moving mass will bounce in the hands of a judge, but won't bounce over the robot. Guns with more kick, tend to have a tendancy to have more bounce, especially if combined with low debounc setting and log holds of shot queign.

What the robot will catch is excessive shot queing, super low debounce settings, and ramp modes if they're turned on.

 

[Wadidiz]

I am unable to participate in this discussion as much as I like because I simply don't have enough time now. We are trying to continously improve our routines and we are taking to heart the points brought up here. We will continue to do everything in our power to prevent illegal guns on our fields and we will do our best to make things as clear, fair and even for all. We will be sure that everyone who attends the captains' meetings get no surprises. At the same time we won't even come close to pleasing everyone, but we're trying.

Steve

 

[camsmith]

Thanks Steve,

I would just like to point out that most of the adjustment of markers is done well before a tournament. Yes, currently minor adjustments can be made at a tournament, but the rules need to be clear so that markers can be setup and tested before even getting to a tournament.

The captains meeting should really be there to highlight particular problems currently being put under extra scrutiny, and clarify any changed rule interpretations.

Something as fundamental to the sport as a trigger pull (and therefore trigger bounce) should not be open to interpretation, and therefore should not be changed at any tournament. This way, players can arrive at any venue, confident that their markers pass the "standard" test as described in the rules.

 

[Dreadful]

About the bounce test. It seems like most of the people get caught when the ref comes to the test where he tries to slowly depress the trigger. But who is actually doing that during a game!?!
I can't think of anyone that tries to find that sweetspot and get that little burst of shots. It might be because while you're trying to find it that other guy just shot you over and over again...

Ofcourse the bounce can add some extra shots when you're walking the trigger normally. But this should(?) show up at the robot you're talking about. And so will the ramping boards ofcourse.

It's time to stop TB from ruin our sport. It feels like the safety has taken over the fun when you can't get onto the field because a ref says your gun is bouncing after it fires twice out of 3-4 TB attempts.

Oh, and while we're talking about high safety.
At a tournament yesterday one of our guys could have lost an eye after a macroline exploded. Clearly they are not made for the pressure some people put into them since they break now and then.
I'm sure this isn't the only story you've heard about macrolines so why are they still allowed in millennium?

 

[Wadidiz]

Steve

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
While I certainly appreciate you are a guy with a normal 9-5 job and a family to look after, I also hope you will ackowledge the current rules and testing methods are wholly inadequate, and that you will work towards a substantial change ?

Nick

No, I will not acknowledge that the current rules and testing methods are wholly inadequate. Just partly so. And yes we are working towards a substantial change.

As for rules, these are my suggested changes (at least regarding the definition of what will be allowed).
_____________________________
11. Markers

11.01 Players may use a single .68 caliber pump or semiautomatic paintball marker, which consists of a single barrel and a single trigger system. Double-action triggers and paintball markers capable of shooting in any other mode other than semiautomatic or pump mode without the use of external tools or substantial disassembly of the marker are prohibited.

11.02 The definition of a trigger is the moveable lever or button that comes in contact with the finger. The contacts of a switch are not a trigger. The cycling of a trigger requires an exertion of force by the finger on the trigger and a release of force by the finger on the trigger for each trigger cycle. Markers may shoot at any rate of fire, and may shoot any number of paintballs, provided they shoot in semiautomatic or pump mode only and provided that no more than one paintball is discharged for each trigger cycle. No paintball may be discharged after ½ second of the release of force on the trigger and in no case shall more than one paintball be discharged after the release of force on the trigger.

11.03 Markers with electronic firing systems must be locked or in a tournament mode. The player may not be able to adjust dwell, debounce or shooting mode while on field. A paintball marker capable of firing in other than semi automatic or pump discharge modes shall be rendered incapable of firing in such mode in such a manner that requires the use of external tools or substantial disassembly of the marker. If the marker has a ball detection system on it, the player may be allowed to turn the ball detection system on or off with the permission of a referee. Players may also turn their loaders on/off for purposes of cleaning with the permission of a referee.
________________________________

The testing method is another thing that has to be worked out.

It seems to me there are two main points here: 1) making sure that we don't allow anyhing but semiauto on our fields (whch is not even debatable in Europe) and 2) finding a way to do it that doesn't cause players and organizers too much grief.

I believe we've achieved the first one; we just have to work on the second one.

Players, techies and manufacturers will have to take their responsibility to make sure there is enough margin to ensure constant legality.

I know that it can be done. Look at the E-blades adjusted by Nick Truter. They consistently passed our bounce tests and they shot at maximum legal speed.

Another thing: I really want to know, were there guns that weren't allowed in Toulouse that should have been? Were there any totally unjustified suspensions?

In any case we are working on a routine that will mean no penalties will be applied without a second judge confirming that the marker is illegal upon request (in every case I've seen the illegal guns were illegal without question).

So, until we get some testing instrument we'll keep on with whatever means we have. No way we're going to bury our heads in the sand and just let it go.

Meanwhile we're anxiously awaiting a robot.

Steve

 

[duffistuta]

Re: Steve

Originally posted by Wadidiz


Meanwhile we're anxiously awaiting a robot.

Wrap Sosta in tin foil - he'll look and sound like Metal Mickey.

What ramifications will the NXL rule changes have on the EXL when they are published...any?

 

[Buddha 3]

Re: Steve

Originally posted by Wadidiz

11.02 The definition of a trigger is the moveable lever or button that comes in contact with the finger. The contacts of a switch are not a trigger. The cycling of a trigger requires an exertion of force by the finger on the trigger and a release of force by the finger on the trigger for each trigger cycle. Markers may shoot at any rate of fire, and may shoot any number of paintballs, provided they shoot in semiautomatic or pump mode only and provided that no more than one paintball is discharged for each trigger cycle. No paintball may be discharged after ½ second of the release of force on the trigger and in no case shall more than one paintball be discharged after the release of force on the trigger.

Are you aware that this seems to make the SOB boards on Intimidators illegal when they have their eye switched on? Also, there is an easy way to skirt this rule, since the firing cycle is initiated by the pull of the trigger, not the release. So if some has a delay of any form on his marker (like the above mentioned Timmies), all he needs to do is hold the trigger back until the gun stops shooting. I don't think that is what you have in mind though...

PS I'm still looking at that stuff you sent me. I've gathered a small group of rules brainiacs around me, and we're getting down and dirty with it. I'll keep you informed.