Have that Mr Robinson

[Robbo]

Fair minded people?

Originally posted by Fabio421
So out of all that I wrote in my post this one sentence is all that you take offence to? Not bad. But please answer the question Mr. Robinson. Can you honestly cast stones? The world is waiting.

To deposit this argument into the realms of the absolute is both ludicrous and ignorant.
Just because I have cheated in the past doesn't disqualify me from having a valued judgment on the subject !!!
I can hold my hands up quite honestly and count the number of times I have knowingly cheated on my digits (toes included) in over 15 years of playing.
I ain't proud of it, nor seek any credit for it being a relatively low figure.
It's a matter of not only degree but also intent.
I NEVER went onto a field with the intention to wipe or play on if and when I could get away with it, other players do.
I was pehaps known for other infractions on the paintball field but not for cheating, sorry to disappoint you !
I draw the distinction, and have done many times in the past if you had cared to read my articles, between a spontaneous reaction and a premeditated act of cheating borne out of habit and malice aforethought.
I was not an institutionalized cheat, others are and on that basis, I can cast the first stone, hell I'll chuck a frikkin rock if ya like.
There is a line to be drawn in paintball with regard to cheating and I tell ya one thing Fabio, I am on one side of that line and players like Marcus are most definitely on the other !!!

 

[Fabio421]

To Baca and Robbo. Thanks for your response's . This is what sets this forum apart from so many others. People can have differing opinions and express these differing views without resorting to "smacktalking". How refreshing.
Robbo, I wasn't trying to imply that you were known for being a cheater. I have never been under that impression. I just get annoyed sometimes at what I see as Hypocrisy (sp) toward players who bend or break the rules. I do agree that there are degrees to which one can be labeled a "cheat" and Marcus is most definitely on the extreem side of the equation. It just gets to me sometimes when I hear the same drone,time and timeagain of players pointing fingers at others and accusing them of some infraction or another. I am one who tends to shrug it off and make a mental note to shoot the ******* 'till he taps out on the next go round. Or due to my short attention span, forget it even happened by the end of the game. I guess thats just the way I am. It seems there are great strides being made on the reffing side of things (in some leagues at least) . And this will help to curb the problem. But we will never completly get rid of the issue and I preffer to look at these infractions as somewhat of a foul. Some play the edge and its the reffs job to penalize them for doing so. I refuse to get worked up over it. My blood pressure can't handle it. It would only lead to bad blood between fellow sportsmen. And we've seen where that road takes us.

 

[Baca Loco]

Now that that's settled--tell me, Fabio. Is 'I can't believe it's not butter' really that good?

 

[avidfan]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Now that that's settled--tell me, Fabio. Is 'I can't believe it's not butter' really that good?

LOL...I can't remember when I have ever been caught so completely off guard before.

This is such a great place to keep up with what's happening in the world of paintball, have a few laughs, and read posts made by good friends.

Thank you, Nexus. I got the poster and appreciate all the terrific things that were written. It's hanging next to my jersey. You all mean so much to me.
A/N Mum

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Fabio421
To Baca and Robbo. Thanks for your response's . This is what sets this forum apart from so many others. People can have differing opinions and express these differing views without resorting to "smacktalking". How refreshing.
Robbo, I wasn't trying to imply that you were known for being a cheater. I have never been under that impression. I just get annoyed sometimes at what I see as Hypocrisy (sp) toward players who bend or break the rules. I do agree that there are degrees to which one can be labeled a "cheat" and Marcus is most definitely on the extreem side of the equation. It just gets to me sometimes when I hear the same drone,time and timeagain of players pointing fingers at others and accusing them of some infraction or another. I am one who tends to shrug it off and make a mental note to shoot the ******* 'till he taps out on the next go round. Or due to my short attention span, forget it even happened by the end of the game. I guess thats just the way I am. It seems there are great strides being made on the reffing side of things (in some leagues at least) . And this will help to curb the problem. But we will never completly get rid of the issue and I preffer to look at these infractions as somewhat of a foul. Some play the edge and its the reffs job to penalize them for doing so. I refuse to get worked up over it. My blood pressure can't handle it. It would only lead to bad blood between fellow sportsmen. And we've seen where that road takes us.

Hey Fab, I didn't think you were trying to label me as a cheat but you were implying people who have cheated were somehow precluded from being able to criticise cheating.
It's like this; I do not necessarily immediately label anybody who has cheated as being a cheat, no more than everybody in normal life who has committed a criminal act is a criminal.
Paintball cheats like Marcus are habitual, it is a mindset condition these guys have and you are right, we will never rid them from our sport no more than we will rid criminals from everyday life.
You maybe look on these people's actions as 'fouls' and as such I think this lessens the seriousness of the perception of their dirty deeds.
I would like to see known cheats targeted and a sliding scale of severity of penalty being applied to this cancer to our sport like we see, in say soccer, and then we might see a differing attitude from players like Marcus.
At the moment, they have a philosophical attitude toward playing and being penalised, 'If you can catch me, then penalise me'.
It's as simple as that, an almost pathological attitude toward the rules of the game and I believe I can stand up and shout this behaviour down because if I can't, I'm afraid Dominican monks are pretty thin on the ground when it comes to throwing that first stone.
As for bad blood being cultivated, point taken, but I also believe there is always a ‘rogue’ element in any sport you care to choose, it just remains for the sport itself to mature sufficiently to be able to deal with this type cancer and cut it out.

 

[Kitch]

Wow, started reading the thread all light hearted then bang philosophy right at the end. Got a makings of a good book (it's certainly better than any of those Jackie Collins novels that Pipes kends me)

 

[Fabio421]

Mr. Robinson.
You are are on the NPPL rules comittee and you are suggesting some sliding scale for assesing penalties. If I understand you correctly you are saying that people who habitually break the rules should get a more severe punishment for a particular infraction than someone who is not known to do so. How would you suggest we go about enforcing a rule like this? Who would be responsible for deeming someone a "habitual offender"? With the current state of marshaling ie;teams reffing teams / friends reffing friends how could we be assured that this wouldn't turn into another way to "give love". Just for arguments sake I will use your team as an example. And rest assured I am not implying that your team would actually do this. I just need an example to make my argument. Lets say Nexus is reffing an event and team RAGE comes onto the field to play a game. It could be very possible for a judge from Nexus to impose a "habitual Offender" penalty or label to a RAGE player which would not only hobble them for that particular game or event. But could actually follow them around and put them at a disadvantage for the rest of the season or however long the rule would allow. I'm not discounting your idea. I think it has potential. I would just like to hear a little more detail in how you think it could be enforced fairly and even handedly. In reality we have an unwritten rule similar to this in practice at present. Don't you think judges keep an extra carefull eye turned toward Marcus when he steps on their field. His record preceeds him. He is a well known player who is also well known for is indescretions. If a judge catches him hiding hits, wiping a hit etc. don't you think that judge would be more likely to impose a stiffer penalty on him because of his reputation? If not it is most likely because he is a well known and for the most part, well liked player in the league. Which brings us back to the point of needing payed, non partial and un-affiliated (w/ a team) judges. Its a viscious circle .

 

[shamu]

Originally posted by Fabio421
... With the current state of marshaling ie;teams reffing teams / friends reffing friends how could we be assured that this wouldn't turn into another way to "give love".

FYI - NPPL referees are not associated with any teams playing in the event; they use independant refs, not teams. PSP and Millenium still use team refs.

Which brings us back to the point of needing payed, non partial and un-affiliated (w/ a team) judges. Its a viscious circle .

Not really. Come play a NPPL event

I don't like the "habitual offender" rule for common infractions like playing on. That would be like creating a "habitual offender" rule for football linemen who hold or hockey players who trip. I would like to see the "habitual offender" rule used for players who engage in more extreme violations, such as fighting. I see fighting and similar conduct as a bigger black eye to the sport than playing on.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Fabio421

You are are on the NPPL rules comittee and you are suggesting some sliding scale for assesing penalties. If I understand you correctly you are saying that people who habitually break the rules should get a more severe punishment for a particular infraction than someone who is not known to do so. How would you suggest we go about enforcing a rule like this? Who would be responsible for deeming someone a "habitual offender"? With the current state of marshaling ie;teams reffing teams / friends reffing friends how could we be assured that this wouldn't turn into another way to "give love". Just for arguments sake I will use your team as an example. And rest assured I am not implying that your team would actually do this. I just need an example to make my argument. Lets say Nexus is reffing an event and team RAGE comes onto the field to play a game. It could be very possible for a judge from Nexus to impose a "habitual Offender" penalty or label to a RAGE player which would not only hobble them for that particular game or event. But could actually follow them around and put them at a disadvantage for the rest of the season or however long the rule would allow. I'm not discounting your idea. I think it has potential. I would just like to hear a little more detail in how you think it could be enforced fairly and even handedly. In reality we have an unwritten rule similar to this in practice at present. Don't you think judges keep an extra carefull eye turned toward Marcus when he steps on their field. His record preceeds him. He is a well known player who is also well known for is indescretions. If a judge catches him hiding hits, wiping a hit etc. don't you think that judge would be more likely to impose a stiffer penalty on him because of his reputation? If not it is most likely because he is a well known and for the most part, well liked player in the league. Which brings us back to the point of needing payed, non partial and un-affiliated (w/ a team) judges. Its a viscious circle .

Hey Fab I am not saying for one second that my idea is gonna be taken up by the NPPL, I haven't even mentioned it to any of the other guys on the NPPL rules committee and has only come up in answer to some of the problems mentioned in this thread.
As for how it would work, I think pretty much by default, players like Marcus and Co do attract a proportionate level of vigilance from judges, or at least should do.
This will hopefully automatically deter some of their actions, but also when they do cheat, this will hopefully lead to an increase in captures.
All this is achieved with judges using their common sense and eyes.
Secondly, we don't have to label anybody in formal terms, the amount of times they have been caught would determine that for us, all we need to do is to determine the levels of infractions that would attract such a description.
They basically label themselves by virtue of the numbers of times they have been caught cheating.
If a player has been caught playing on twice in a year then he would be not deemed an habitual cheat but if somebody was caught say three tournaments in a row, then he most certainly has to be looked at.
Now don't try and tie me down to specifics here, I am talking about principles of action rather than details.
As for biased marshalling? You can't let potential incidences of that get in the way of the 'right thing to do', you allow that to happen, and we get nowhere fast !!

 

[Fabio421]

FYI - NPPL referees are not associated with any teams playing in the event; they use independant refs, not teams. PSP and Millenium still use team refs.

This statement is only partially true. There are a certain number of NPPl reffs and the rest of the reffing corps is made up of teams who are paid to reff for that event only. In Miami there were approx. 30 local players who were hired to reff the event.


Robbo, I think your idea has meritt and maybe it should be brought up in the next rules comittee meeting. But how do you keep up with the statistics of who is penalized? Currently there is no way to track this. There would have to be some type of record kept that is somehow tied into the player I.D. system. One problem I se arising is the definition of playing on. It seems that every marshal has their own guidlines that they follow. Someone who is hit on the way to bunker someone but still follows through is technicaly playing on. Where do we draw the line. I know that when I run through on a team I don't have time to stop and check to see if the ball that I just felt hit me broke or not. I depend on the reffs to do this for me in most cases. Where do we draw the line as to what is acceptable and what is not. Is it two steps after a hit, three steps, What if I am running so fast that I can't stop in time to avaoid a penalty? There needs to be some solid ground rules for this to go anywhere. But like I said before. This idea has potential. I just wonder how it could be practicaly implemented.
And Shamu, I agree with you on the fighting issue. There are rules that would put and end to most of this problem. The only problem is that they are not enforced as strictly as is needed. At the PSP World Cup a player from Rock-it Kids beat down a player from Viscious because the Viscious player bonus balled the hell out of him and taunted him at the same time. The RIK was ejected from the property for the rest of the event and the RIK's had to play the rest of the prelims, semi's and finals one man down. Fortunatly for them they were still able to win. (props to them) But this is how fights should be delt with in my opinion. If penalties like this were given out more readily you would see a dramatic decrease in violent behavior. Remember when throwing guns was all the rage and all the cool kids were doing it? Once they started enforcing three game suspensions where teams had to play short it stopped for the most part. Even handed enforcement is the key here in my opinion.