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Furby

Naughty Paintball God
Mar 28, 2002
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www.thefordreport.com
Originally posted by Baca Loco
Without wishing to pick sides--especially as I'm currently so popular (This must be BizzaroWorld :D )-- it seems the one item you didn't address was the accuracy of the quote cause it appears to be pretty inclusive. No doubt is was an oversight as you did such a thorough job on the rest.
That quote would have to go to Mr. Drew, not me...I'm aware of only one injury at a PSP event this year (World Cup), but ramping had nothing to do with that...that had more to do with malicious punks who shot up a ref, sending him to the hospital and the perpetrator went to the grey bar hotel.
 
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duffistuta

Guest
Originally posted by PSPLane


Unlike with Duffy and his crew, things like this ain't so easily forgotten around here. One bad dream and banjos, pig calls ..........

.
We only forget easily cos we self-medicate with rohypnol...it's the only way to make our pathetic existences worthwhile in this Groundhog Life.

Sorry, got sidetracked...
 

Wadidiz

EnHaNcE tHa TrAnCe
Jul 9, 2002
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Stockholm, EU
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(I understand this is a mere parentheses in this debate and I won't post any more here than this.)
Originally posted by Furby
...nobody has that sort of stamina...
Except me. :D And that would be a nice way to put it. "Annoying persistency" is probably a better description. I won't continue forever (maybe not) trying to convince the few if any that care about the following points but I just have a hard time giving up.
Originally posted by Furby
Mr. Morris and I argued at length on this site about the legality of the Fly'd Adrenalin LCD that was temporarily deemed illegal at that event. From what friends in Norway tell me, he still insists to this day that the marker was 'adding shots'. I maintain that the marker was legal, and the fact that the penalty that was initially assessed against my team was later reversed, and our points given back to us as proof positive that Rosie and whomever else was involved in that decision that the marker was legal. Or at the very least, it couldn't be proved illegal, especially since nobody but Mr. Morris and the player who was using the marker at the time of the penalty ever actually shot it. During my meeting with Rosie directly after the penalty was assessed, I asked him repeatedly to shoot it to see for himself, and he refused to do so. Yet I later overheard conversations between him and others stating that "There's a problem" with the Shocktech field (The one Mr. Morris was running).
The reason why I don't give in on this is because:

a.) I had just got through a whole season dealing with the issue of excessive bouncing and "adding shots". I had debated, discussed and gathered information everywhere I could to try to understand the technical aspects of this very important subject.

b.) What I had seen and heard about the trend towards illegally high rates of fire led me to believe that we, in Millennium, had to do what we could to forestall the invasion of the illegal modes and excessive rates of fire.

c.) We (and I) made a lot of mistakes in our efforts but we also learned in the process of our eight events. I now assume the responsibility for those mistakes because I was in charge of the officiating. I personally made some of those mistakes myself and there were some who were perhaps overzealous. Some mistakes were due to communication problems (I thought I had explained things carefully enough) and others were failure to adequately supervise and manage.

d.) By the time I got to the World Cup I knew how to check guns for illegality within the limitations of the testing equipment we had, that is didn't have. I would only deem a gun illegal if, while holding it tightly as I would while playing, it bounced more than a few times or "burped". Any gun can be made to bounce so a bounce here in there wasn't enough. But a double tap or burst meant it was excessively bouncy which means it adds shots while using it. If a gun wasn't excessively bouncy there is a possibilty we felt it add shots and I wouldn't have judged a gun thusly unless I was sure beyond a doubt in my mind. Therefore I don't see how in the world I would deem a gun "adding shots" after one of my refs handed it to me unless it were doing so.

e.) I heard accusations that I or we in PSP were picking on WDP. That seems highly unlikely considering my friendship and good relations with WDP and the fact that I played on a WDP sponsored team with one of their directors. I also have publicly and privately considered Angels to be my favorite gun for years.

If some reports came about a "problem" with the field under my management then it could be that I had developed a slightly different standard than the other head refs due to the experience I had accumulated. I did my best to adjust to that environment as I learned on the job.

Therefore I will continue to disagree with you. I hold out the theoretical possibilty that I could have been mistaken but I don't think it likely. I think it's more likely you're mistaken since I had much more experience than you with this issue. Nothing can be proven now, can it?

Because of the difficulties we in Millennium and PSP had with this issue a new way of dealing with it was instituted, namely the 15bps cap. I believe I was intrumental in getting the cap in Millennium. My experience at this year's World Cup showed me that the issue can be effectively resolved in a fair and safe way if properly enforced and monitored. I believe PSP's policy and practice is truly commendable and is the only safe and fair way at this point in time. I had a chance to test out the improved devices for this at the WC and with the wide-spread deployment of this equipment next year's PSP will have this whole issue substantially locked down and the other leagues will do well to follow suit. The ramping velocity will also be under even better control next season.

I have been lambasted, maligned and misunderstood because of my efforts in Season 2004 but I feel I did the best anyone could under the circumstances short of ignoring it and going with the flow and it all came from the purest of motives. My efforts and my mistakes around this have cost me but that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

'Nuff said.
 

SteveD

Getting Up Again
Lane,

I believe that 5 (player representation) is a reasonable and accomplishable goal. The mechanism is up for grabs, but it would certainly include at least some of the following:

1. ENCOURAGE players and teams to participate. you do this by giving them 'ownership'. Let them participate first on matters that do not directly affect revenue streams. Conduct polls (it hardly matters how many legit responses you get back, anything is input).

This can include things such as 'do we need a captains meeting'? would you prefer to play all games on 1, 2, 3, 4 different fields? Is 5 minutes a long enough game time? blah, blah. The subject of the questions is not important - the opportunity to participate is.

2. Proxy representation MUST be allowed for any kind of legitimacy to be conferred on the participation. Again, we're not talking issues like - how much profit should a promoter make - we're talking about establishing a mechanism, that the teams will come to utilize, and learn to rely on as a safety valve for any grievances. If the pig screams when stuck, you know you hit a nerve. Participant representation serves as a check and balance on insuring that you are in fact providing decent customer service, and helps identify problems before they get too big.

Teams and players have learned over the years that it is POINTLESS to participate, so the first stage is in rebuilding the concept. There are plenty of things that the teams see, do and want that, if they were able to express themselves, would give them warm and fuzzy feelings. Things that are not necessarily of a financial nature that any league could easily accomodate without affecting its internal operations.

#6. I ask you, just for a moment, to forget the individuals involved and your own close involvement with a sport, and layer the current state of affairs from competition onto any other professional sport you are familiar with, and then ask yourself if you would consider it to be legit: by way of example:

The NFL no longer consists of a League Body, headed by an appointed commissioner with open-ended tenure and major safeguards against removal, balanced against 30 some odd independant team owners, an independant officiating organization and an independant players union.

Instead, the head office is run by a committee of 5 team owners, with no representation for the other team owners as well. Additionally, the officials are people selected and appointed by those same 5 team owners. The players have no representation and play strictly at the whim of their various owners. Isn't it amusing that the super-bowl is always held in one of 5 particular cities? Isn't it stange that the 5 teams owned by the 5 league owners are always the top teams in their divisions? Isn't it weird that controversial field calls always 'seem' to go the direction of those 5 teams.

Suppose those five league owners could willy-nilly remove a franchise from one owner and sell it to some new 'friend'. How many people would be interested in owning a franchise when they would always be second-class citizens?

That's what #6 refers to.

If I were an outside concern that showed some passing interest in owning a team in such a league, I would at least initially be attracted by the demographics and the exposure - until I found out that there was a potential ceiling on what I and my organization could accomplish and that there would always be competitors that were one up on me, no matter what I did or how much money I spent, simply because they were the ones that controlled my ability to get my message out.

I agree that not all of the above is based on fact - a good percentage of it is perceptual - but lets remember Ron Simeo's perception of paintball as published a few years back in the ESPN magazine: 'silly, ridiculous, a non-starter, never going to get anywhere'. Perception counts and, so far as tournament paintball and leagues are concerned, perhaps the single biggest issue.

If you want things to be taken seriously, the league MUST be formed along a-political lines that prevent the perception of power-mongering from entering the picture. Maybe that means that certain individuals must hide their influence more effectively, or maybe it means that the structure must change (such as the team owners electing a commissioner who can only be removed by unanimous vote).

But one thing is clear; people who own teams who also own the league will forever have a cloud of suspicion hanging over them and their actions.
 

Nick Brockdorff

New Member
Jul 9, 2001
588
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www.uglyducklings.dk
But Steve

While the NFL example is absolutely valid forthe NXL - how should it pertain to the PSP (or NPPL for that matter)?

I mean - do you envision a league owned jointly by 200 teams? :eek:

It would be incredibly ineffective - and a very large majority of those teams are in no way organised to even begin handling owning a stake in the league - however small.

- and how would you handle the steady influx of new teams - and teams ceasing to exist?

According to your own post, if would not work if only "some" of the teams owned the league... so I don't really see how you can solve the problem?

I think we need to face that paintball is vary different from mahy other sports, in two fundamental ways:

- It is event based
- The participant number in any given division is greater than in most other sports

To me that means we HAVE to think outside the envelope for the right solution.

Nick
 
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duffistuta

Guest
Originally posted by SteveD
The subject of the questions is not important - the opportunity to participate is.

Maybe that means that certain individuals must hide their influence more effectively

Those two quotes worry me a little Steve - the former suggests lip service to what the players want, the latter suggests that it is not the existence of pernicious influences that are the problem, but their visibility.

Player input should not just appear to be happening, it should be happening. The subject of the questions is important.

And unfair influences to the outcome of a sporting contest should not be hidden, they should be removed.

I found Baca's world cup diary interesting in that there is a repeated reference to the haves - NXL teams owned by one of the ruling cartel - and the have nots and the influence they had on everything from game scheduling upward. Given that this was written by someone on the inside of the NXL, and someone who has championed tehe format and the league as a concept, that's a huge issue.

Let's not have the appearance of a real league with player input, let's have the reality.
 

SteveD

Getting Up Again
Duffi,

you're absolutely right.

I was addressing Lane, and presumably the people he works with/for, as well as PP/NPPL.

I did not want to appear to be proposing radical change which would have a negative impact on individual's revenue streams - which seems to have been the counter-argument for enacting such changes.

The fear seems to be that if a measure of control is given up, the dollar flow will be negatively affected.

My statement was designed to get to the first part - putting in place mechansims which will lead to improvement in the future - but doing so right now in a non-threatening manner to all.

There's a conspiracy theory here in the US that the founders actually set things up to insure that they retained power. One of the contentions is that they recognized they could provide the citizenry with the power of free speech. After all, if they really did have the reigns of power, what did it matter what anyone else said about it?

Whether the freedom of free speech is an illusion or a fact has not mattered much in the progress that has been made, and I would contend that 'if the powers that be' had true faith in their control and the direction they were going in, they would not be sweating the details like player orgs, classification systems and etc. They would, in the long run, find that when you open a market up, people fall all over themselves trying to find ways to make you even more money, and you end up having less work to do. Plus (a big plus), you end up with plausible deniability.

I guess what I'm really saying is that accomodating the things we need to do to move forward can be started in a non-threatening manner to all concerned, and that as it develops, everyone can begin to find ways to work better together.

I see a difference between the two camps in this area; PP does not seem to be afraid of opening things up. They're little things, but its a start. PSP, on the other hand, does not seem as open to me. But that's back to comparing and I'm not supposed to be doing that here.

What's that saying about love and the butterfly? If you catch one and then let it go, if it comes back, you know you have true control, and if it never does, then you know it was just an illusion to begin with. Or something like that.

As always though, its lack of a unified goal that is the big issue. I'd like to see goals stated, publicly, as to where each league wants to take us.

Sponsors - ask yourselves this: what do you get more return out of - a national tv ad with an 800 number promoting paintball, or a slew of events around the country that impact maybe a hundred thousand or so non-players?

The demands by the sponsors should not be that the leagues do more for less, it should be the sponsors saying 'we get a better ROI from other methods - show us how you're going to compete with that.'
 

SteveD

Getting Up Again
Nick,

it can be based on other 'event-based' sports;

marathon running, bicycle, etc.

there are multiple classes and qualifying requirements for each; there is independant officiating.

it could be done like tennis - to compete in the higher-end events, you need to earn your place through the lower-end events

the key issue is the connection between team ownership, league ownership and officiating control.

they must be separated.

get my pm?
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,116
2,157
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London
www.p8ntballer.com
One thing I have learnt on these boards is the following, if Nick, SteveD, Waddidiz, Baca and Missy ever get involved in the same thread then the 'inverse proprtionality' rule can be applied :-

The more they talk, the less we know.....