Do Your Part to Help Reunification
- Thread starter Baca Loco
- Start date
Oh yeah - well, my mother will tell you that I've got a 12 degree black belt in windmill battling - and the large, calloused, build up area on my forehead from banging it into windmills since at least the age of 6. You know, it stops hurting after a while, leaving just a numb kinda feeling.
Chicago - I'm not sure what you're referring to as disagreeing with the trademark issue?
The mark 'NPPL' was never registered by the 'Brown' hats. They just never got around to it.
I wanted to register it at the time of the split, but lacked the funds to do so. Since Mr. Flint, Mr. Cole and Mr. Hendsch were carrying the fight for what I personally considered to be the legitimate successor of the original organization, I suggested that they do so. Reasoning was that it would be yet another chip to play in the game. There was a big side-fight going on over the website registration, and ICANN gives precedence to trademark holders when URLs are in dispute.
Baca - if it is Chuck's INTENTION to be a 'player's' league, then stating so in marketing and advertising is not misleading, so long as the product of that intent justifies it. To date (for the vast majority of circumstances), it lives up to that intent.
Appointed versus elected - you're correct. It would be far better to be able to have a body that elected reps to important positions, but here's the issue: there is not enough viable representation on the part of the teams to form a body that could effectively take over that responsibility. I doubt very much if that's the internal stated reason for not holding elections, but its the reality on the ground.
NPPL tried for a number of years to use inside talent and voting to get its thing done and, for a variety of reasons, was unable to do so. Mostly because the folks got blinded by the money issue and were willing to check their brains at the door, so long as going along looked like they'd get free play.
I should have known better right from the beginning; despite the fact that we elected a rules committee, who's first responsibility was to draft the 2003 rulebook, I ended up writing the whole thing about three weeks before the first event (San Diego) and then spent another couple of weeks getting the committee members to sign off on it; I doubt if any of them read it prior to approving it...
I think that if the teams and players can demonstrate in a non-threatening manner that they are ready to take over responsibilities appropriate to the teams, NPPL would be more than happy to turn over the scut work to them.
I personally told Chuck that I would not be doing any political agitating so far as NPPL was concerned, because, like I said, PP and Chuck are 'caretaking' in a way that I consider to be appropriate. When the teams have stated a grievance, its been considered and addressed.
Representation. Hmmm. What are players offered when they sign up? Tracking in the database. A guarantee that teams will not cheat roster issues. The ability to enforce bans. Events they can attend that deliver a stated set of services. The right to attend an annual meeting where they can participate in rule changes and make suggestions. Sounds like they're getting their representation to me.
Reffing remains a big issue, true. I'd happily go back to cheaper events if it meant more money for refs, better training, regular crew, etc. Its not unreasonable to request that PP support such an effort. If I had the time, I'd go to the meeting next week, stand up and offer that suggestion, along with some ways to go about achieving it. (I think that all top-level sponsorships should include a contribution to a pool for such things.)
We're arguing semantics when it comes to the 'players league' advertising. Right now, they're doing what they ought to be doing, and handling things in a fair and balanced manner. If they stop doing so, then will be the time to start agitating again.
Chicago - I'm not sure what you're referring to as disagreeing with the trademark issue?
The mark 'NPPL' was never registered by the 'Brown' hats. They just never got around to it.
I wanted to register it at the time of the split, but lacked the funds to do so. Since Mr. Flint, Mr. Cole and Mr. Hendsch were carrying the fight for what I personally considered to be the legitimate successor of the original organization, I suggested that they do so. Reasoning was that it would be yet another chip to play in the game. There was a big side-fight going on over the website registration, and ICANN gives precedence to trademark holders when URLs are in dispute.
Baca - if it is Chuck's INTENTION to be a 'player's' league, then stating so in marketing and advertising is not misleading, so long as the product of that intent justifies it. To date (for the vast majority of circumstances), it lives up to that intent.
Appointed versus elected - you're correct. It would be far better to be able to have a body that elected reps to important positions, but here's the issue: there is not enough viable representation on the part of the teams to form a body that could effectively take over that responsibility. I doubt very much if that's the internal stated reason for not holding elections, but its the reality on the ground.
NPPL tried for a number of years to use inside talent and voting to get its thing done and, for a variety of reasons, was unable to do so. Mostly because the folks got blinded by the money issue and were willing to check their brains at the door, so long as going along looked like they'd get free play.
I should have known better right from the beginning; despite the fact that we elected a rules committee, who's first responsibility was to draft the 2003 rulebook, I ended up writing the whole thing about three weeks before the first event (San Diego) and then spent another couple of weeks getting the committee members to sign off on it; I doubt if any of them read it prior to approving it...
I think that if the teams and players can demonstrate in a non-threatening manner that they are ready to take over responsibilities appropriate to the teams, NPPL would be more than happy to turn over the scut work to them.
I personally told Chuck that I would not be doing any political agitating so far as NPPL was concerned, because, like I said, PP and Chuck are 'caretaking' in a way that I consider to be appropriate. When the teams have stated a grievance, its been considered and addressed.
Representation. Hmmm. What are players offered when they sign up? Tracking in the database. A guarantee that teams will not cheat roster issues. The ability to enforce bans. Events they can attend that deliver a stated set of services. The right to attend an annual meeting where they can participate in rule changes and make suggestions. Sounds like they're getting their representation to me.
Reffing remains a big issue, true. I'd happily go back to cheaper events if it meant more money for refs, better training, regular crew, etc. Its not unreasonable to request that PP support such an effort. If I had the time, I'd go to the meeting next week, stand up and offer that suggestion, along with some ways to go about achieving it. (I think that all top-level sponsorships should include a contribution to a pool for such things.)
We're arguing semantics when it comes to the 'players league' advertising. Right now, they're doing what they ought to be doing, and handling things in a fair and balanced manner. If they stop doing so, then will be the time to start agitating again.
Because, Steve, registering a trademark doesn't mean you own a trademark, it means you've claimed ownership, and that the government has given you the presumtive benefit of the doubt that since you registered it first, it should be assumed that you own it util someone else proves otherwise.
For example, there's a paintball field in the area that operates locations in a couple states. I coiuld, if I wanted to, register their trademark. This would just require that the field sue me to have my registration invalidated, and also open me up to fraud/perjury charges for registering a trademark that I should have known was not mine.
So, Chuck may register a trademark, and he may get away with it since there's unlikely to be anyone who is going to call him on it, but it's clear that Chuck did not create the trademark, nor first use it in interstate commerce, which is the federal basis for trademark ownership.
As for the idea that NPPL offers player tracking and preventing illegal rosters, that's liable. NPPL player tracking ends where usefulness for marketing data does. The annual meeting is also a bit of a sham - if the onlypeople who get to have an opinion are the ones that can fly to a particular location one day a a year, that's not exactly being receptive to input. Not that I believe this is the ONLY place you can give input to NPPL, just that the meeting doesn't serve any purpose other than saying they had a meeting.
As for "intending" to run it at a player's league - either you run it as a player's league or you don't. If Chuck INTENDED to run it as a player's league, he would have incorporated with a charter that said so, not a privately held corporation. He intends to look like he's intending to run a player's league.
Steve, normally you'd be entirely bent out of shape by a move like this, but it looks like you've been blinded by PSP hate into accepting whatever the other guy does.
For example, there's a paintball field in the area that operates locations in a couple states. I coiuld, if I wanted to, register their trademark. This would just require that the field sue me to have my registration invalidated, and also open me up to fraud/perjury charges for registering a trademark that I should have known was not mine.
So, Chuck may register a trademark, and he may get away with it since there's unlikely to be anyone who is going to call him on it, but it's clear that Chuck did not create the trademark, nor first use it in interstate commerce, which is the federal basis for trademark ownership.
As for the idea that NPPL offers player tracking and preventing illegal rosters, that's liable. NPPL player tracking ends where usefulness for marketing data does. The annual meeting is also a bit of a sham - if the onlypeople who get to have an opinion are the ones that can fly to a particular location one day a a year, that's not exactly being receptive to input. Not that I believe this is the ONLY place you can give input to NPPL, just that the meeting doesn't serve any purpose other than saying they had a meeting.
As for "intending" to run it at a player's league - either you run it as a player's league or you don't. If Chuck INTENDED to run it as a player's league, he would have incorporated with a charter that said so, not a privately held corporation. He intends to look like he's intending to run a player's league.
Steve, normally you'd be entirely bent out of shape by a move like this, but it looks like you've been blinded by PSP hate into accepting whatever the other guy does.
Chicago,
as I stated in an earlier post, the NPPL was a defunct corporation - if it was ever registered as a corp to begin with. That organization never saw its way clear to regstering - or even reserving with a TM, the name. Therefore, it was available. I also stated that registration of the trademark was only a 'move' offering another chip at the bargaining table - I never implied that registering it conferred ownership upon the people doing so.
The fact that the 'promoters' group DEMANDED that the trademark registration be turned over to them before any further discussion could take place is pretty good evidence that it served its purpose.
On your other points - I see nothing in there that is any different from the way that NPPL was run when it was a 'player run' organization; team rosters were vetted at political whim, teams that couldn't attend the meetings were disenfranchised. The only real difference now is that no one is under any public illusion that things are supposed to work differently. No one has been promised dividend payments, no one is fixing elections and the promoters aren't pulling strings behind the scenes at odds to what the noisy-do-nothing crowd of players are discussing in the other room.
Its definately an improvement.
I've not been blinded by 'hatred for PSP' - I believe that I see their motivations more clearly than just about anyone, with the exception of others who served the antecedents to it faithfully and were equally as back-stabbed as I was by it.
I do not trust a single thing they say or do, I have no doubt that they are motivated first by power and second by greed - alone - they have never done anything to disabuse me of that assessment - and they have done quite a few things publicly to help confirm it.
as I stated in an earlier post, the NPPL was a defunct corporation - if it was ever registered as a corp to begin with. That organization never saw its way clear to regstering - or even reserving with a TM, the name. Therefore, it was available. I also stated that registration of the trademark was only a 'move' offering another chip at the bargaining table - I never implied that registering it conferred ownership upon the people doing so.
The fact that the 'promoters' group DEMANDED that the trademark registration be turned over to them before any further discussion could take place is pretty good evidence that it served its purpose.
On your other points - I see nothing in there that is any different from the way that NPPL was run when it was a 'player run' organization; team rosters were vetted at political whim, teams that couldn't attend the meetings were disenfranchised. The only real difference now is that no one is under any public illusion that things are supposed to work differently. No one has been promised dividend payments, no one is fixing elections and the promoters aren't pulling strings behind the scenes at odds to what the noisy-do-nothing crowd of players are discussing in the other room.
Its definately an improvement.
I've not been blinded by 'hatred for PSP' - I believe that I see their motivations more clearly than just about anyone, with the exception of others who served the antecedents to it faithfully and were equally as back-stabbed as I was by it.
I do not trust a single thing they say or do, I have no doubt that they are motivated first by power and second by greed - alone - they have never done anything to disabuse me of that assessment - and they have done quite a few things publicly to help confirm it.
I don't disagree with you there (well, I might put greed before power), but where I DO disagree is with yoru thinking that PP/NPPL are any different. They're motivated by exactly the same things.
As for the rest, I realize NPPL may not have been a role model of ap layer's organization "back in the day", but that doesn't excuse it not being one now. And while the old NPPL may not hav actually cheked rosters, and the new NPPL may be better at not checking rosters, PSP definitely tracks players and checks rosters.
Which is why I don't mind greed and powermongering - as long as you've got a competitive environment, those are strong motivators to provide a good product. Which is also why I don't like the idea of unification. The only way Unification would happen is by assuaging the greed/power concerns of ALL the promoters (PP and PSP), and then we're right back to where we started 4 years ago.
SteveD -
Are you aware that PSP is Paintball Sports Promotions, LLC? Are you aware that it is a corporation with shareholders? Are you aware of who those shareholders are? And that each equally is a 1/7th owner?
I ask those questions because I want you to explain how you figure the following quotes apply to the majority of ownership.
My point is that while you are hell bent on sounding off at every available opportunity about the ill will of the promoters group based on your 2 decade old problems with Jerry - you are in essence running down the names of people who are equally in charge of, or equally not in charge of, the group that you talk about. In actuality, you are damning the efforts of myself, Keely Watson, LD, Rosie, etc . I dare you to point to a single instance in my 15 year association with paintball, or my 5 year association with PSP in which I made any decision that put my personal gains ahead of what I felt was best for tournament paintball. I am "the camp" which you refer to (whether you believe it or not). I challenge you, or anyone else, to point to a single instance where my integrity, moral fiber, or character has been lacking. I truly believe that what I want for tournament paintball and what you want for tournament paintball have far more similarities than differences. Unless I terribly misjudged you, I believe that you are far too intelligent to continue down the road you have chosen to somehow right decade old "wrongs".
You are passing judgement on the present situation based on past grievances and it's unfair and inaccurate. You have confused problems you had 12 years ago with an individual, with how a company, in which this individual owns stock, operates today.
To draw a comparison it would be like me condemning you and the company you work for based on the conduct and animus of someone associated with you. Take your buddy "Furby" who allows absolute lies to be written and/or published on his website.
For example–"every single PSP event has had players knocked unconscious due to having balls shot into a players head at the same location repeatedly."
That is an absolute and bold faced lie. And to top it off, he thought it would be nice to send my insurance agent a link to this nonsense. You want a crusade, take that one. Do you think he ever considered the fact that I feed my children from this job? What color is his hat, Steve? Did you know his vendetta got started simply because he was mad at my league for disqualifying his gun from an event when it was determined to be illegal? Ever since then he’s had a hard-on for the PSP. Or how about his allowing Jim Drew to use his website to promote his new product with blatant lies that really are the "dirty and underhanded business practices" you associate with PSP?
Wouldn't it be fair to say he works for you in some capacity? Doesn't your company sponsor the website that he posts this stuff on? Aren’t you connected through a paintball distribution company? Because he is obviously an idiot and a liar, are you an idiot and a liar by association? Based on my assumptions of the truth with regards to your relationship with Furby, and based on the logic you obviously apply when developing an opinion on my company it seems you and your company are as responsible for this as he is. See how it works?
I have always respected your intelligence, and genuinely respected where I thought you wanted paintball to go. It is getting harder and harder to do that. I ask that you try to put your past issues aside and judge what happens with the PSP now, based in the facts of the now.
On a different note -
I have nothing but respect for what Pure Promotions have done. I'm not too egotistical to say that I have learned from them. They bring something to paintball that is not one of my strengths. I appreciate it. From what I know they are good people. From what I have seen, they are making efforts to take the sport forward. I want the same thing as them. I see a different way of going about it. I will refrain from commenting too deeply on the NPPL. It's not my style. Simply put - I do not agree with their methods or their "marketing". I am not a smoke and mirrors kinda guy. But, I am learning ...
I am able to see them (PP/NPPL) as two separate groups. I don't know if that is indeed the fact. But, I grasp it. How can some of you accept that but not accept that DYE and PSP are different? Why can't you see that how Jerry conducts his personal affairs is different than how PSP functions? Between DYE, Smart Parts, National, and WDP - there have been 2047 lawsuits in the past 18 months. All of those companies are "involved" in PSP/PP/NPPL -- we don't sue each other. If you can separate one group, why not the other?
Steve - can you accept that PP and NPPL function separately? Why can't you separate your opinion of Jerry from your opinion of PSP? There is no need for mutual exclusivity there. You have no idea how PSP works. You have never been to a single PSP meeting.
The talks of a merger have cooled. I think that has more to do with people being busy than anything else. I do not look at it as being over by any means. Will it happen? No one knows. Would it better for players, teams, and the industry? No one knows. I can see arguments for and against. But, it ain't over. For the moment, I need to FOCUS on running my series next year. I don't know if a merger will occur. I do know for sure that my events will happen, and I need to be prepared to run them. If an agreement can be made to bring the leagues together - one that works for all involved - then I will refocus our efforts. But, until Ged Green, Bart Walkerdine, or myself posts what will or will not happen, no one should assume anything.
I am very busy. And I type extremely slow. So, don't expect much more from me on this. It takes too much of my time, and it tends to be never ending.
In closing:
Chicago -- slow down
Missy -- lose some weight, and might I suggest a weave
Steve -- this is not 1993 (even if the NEO event had that feel)
Baca -- you rock
Robbo -- answer my damn emails, I'll see ya soon
Duff -- you rock, almost (the hippie attitude causes me concern)
Furby -- get a life
Jeff Stein -- abandonment is a terrible thing
Broccolli Dude -- I shot Babe first.........I thought.
Red Ring -- I see you are wisely keeping a safe distance
Are you aware that PSP is Paintball Sports Promotions, LLC? Are you aware that it is a corporation with shareholders? Are you aware of who those shareholders are? And that each equally is a 1/7th owner?
I ask those questions because I want you to explain how you figure the following quotes apply to the majority of ownership.
I also want to point out that the 7 shareholders of PSP currently have only one piece of control in their collective authority. That authority is to terminate my employment. I am the President and CEO of the company. I have total power with regards to operations and financial issues regards the company. Jerry Braun cannot fire Keely. Renick Miller cannot change entry fees for the Chicago event. Dave DeHaan cannot make a rule. Adam Gardner cannot sign a contract for a venue. Gary Shows cannot give a raise to an employee (other than me), nor can he sign a check. And, even collectively, they cannot decide what I charge them as sponsors of the league.
My point is that while you are hell bent on sounding off at every available opportunity about the ill will of the promoters group based on your 2 decade old problems with Jerry - you are in essence running down the names of people who are equally in charge of, or equally not in charge of, the group that you talk about. In actuality, you are damning the efforts of myself, Keely Watson, LD, Rosie, etc . I dare you to point to a single instance in my 15 year association with paintball, or my 5 year association with PSP in which I made any decision that put my personal gains ahead of what I felt was best for tournament paintball. I am "the camp" which you refer to (whether you believe it or not). I challenge you, or anyone else, to point to a single instance where my integrity, moral fiber, or character has been lacking. I truly believe that what I want for tournament paintball and what you want for tournament paintball have far more similarities than differences. Unless I terribly misjudged you, I believe that you are far too intelligent to continue down the road you have chosen to somehow right decade old "wrongs".
You are passing judgement on the present situation based on past grievances and it's unfair and inaccurate. You have confused problems you had 12 years ago with an individual, with how a company, in which this individual owns stock, operates today.
To draw a comparison it would be like me condemning you and the company you work for based on the conduct and animus of someone associated with you. Take your buddy "Furby" who allows absolute lies to be written and/or published on his website.
For example–"every single PSP event has had players knocked unconscious due to having balls shot into a players head at the same location repeatedly."
That is an absolute and bold faced lie. And to top it off, he thought it would be nice to send my insurance agent a link to this nonsense. You want a crusade, take that one. Do you think he ever considered the fact that I feed my children from this job? What color is his hat, Steve? Did you know his vendetta got started simply because he was mad at my league for disqualifying his gun from an event when it was determined to be illegal? Ever since then he’s had a hard-on for the PSP. Or how about his allowing Jim Drew to use his website to promote his new product with blatant lies that really are the "dirty and underhanded business practices" you associate with PSP?
Wouldn't it be fair to say he works for you in some capacity? Doesn't your company sponsor the website that he posts this stuff on? Aren’t you connected through a paintball distribution company? Because he is obviously an idiot and a liar, are you an idiot and a liar by association? Based on my assumptions of the truth with regards to your relationship with Furby, and based on the logic you obviously apply when developing an opinion on my company it seems you and your company are as responsible for this as he is. See how it works?
I have always respected your intelligence, and genuinely respected where I thought you wanted paintball to go. It is getting harder and harder to do that. I ask that you try to put your past issues aside and judge what happens with the PSP now, based in the facts of the now.
On a different note -
I have nothing but respect for what Pure Promotions have done. I'm not too egotistical to say that I have learned from them. They bring something to paintball that is not one of my strengths. I appreciate it. From what I know they are good people. From what I have seen, they are making efforts to take the sport forward. I want the same thing as them. I see a different way of going about it. I will refrain from commenting too deeply on the NPPL. It's not my style. Simply put - I do not agree with their methods or their "marketing". I am not a smoke and mirrors kinda guy. But, I am learning ...
I am able to see them (PP/NPPL) as two separate groups. I don't know if that is indeed the fact. But, I grasp it. How can some of you accept that but not accept that DYE and PSP are different? Why can't you see that how Jerry conducts his personal affairs is different than how PSP functions? Between DYE, Smart Parts, National, and WDP - there have been 2047 lawsuits in the past 18 months. All of those companies are "involved" in PSP/PP/NPPL -- we don't sue each other. If you can separate one group, why not the other?
Steve - can you accept that PP and NPPL function separately? Why can't you separate your opinion of Jerry from your opinion of PSP? There is no need for mutual exclusivity there. You have no idea how PSP works. You have never been to a single PSP meeting.
The talks of a merger have cooled. I think that has more to do with people being busy than anything else. I do not look at it as being over by any means. Will it happen? No one knows. Would it better for players, teams, and the industry? No one knows. I can see arguments for and against. But, it ain't over. For the moment, I need to FOCUS on running my series next year. I don't know if a merger will occur. I do know for sure that my events will happen, and I need to be prepared to run them. If an agreement can be made to bring the leagues together - one that works for all involved - then I will refocus our efforts. But, until Ged Green, Bart Walkerdine, or myself posts what will or will not happen, no one should assume anything.
I am very busy. And I type extremely slow. So, don't expect much more from me on this. It takes too much of my time, and it tends to be never ending.
In closing:
Chicago -- slow down
Missy -- lose some weight, and might I suggest a weave
Steve -- this is not 1993 (even if the NEO event had that feel)
Baca -- you rock
Robbo -- answer my damn emails, I'll see ya soon
Duff -- you rock, almost (the hippie attitude causes me concern)
Furby -- get a life
Jeff Stein -- abandonment is a terrible thing
Broccolli Dude -- I shot Babe first.........I thought.
Red Ring -- I see you are wisely keeping a safe distance
Lane, I don't know what one you are using but my email is robbo@aceville.com, I'll call ya later on today neway coz I ain't sure you hillbillies have yet mastered the intricacies of the internet, come to think of it mate, do they get broadband in trailer parks?
Callin' a red neck a hillbilly is almost like callin' a Scotsman English (or really vice-versa considerin' the highlands). And it ain't "trailer parks"; it's "manufactured home communities".Originally posted by Robbo
... coz I ain't sure you hillbillies have yet mastered the intricacies of the internet, come to think of it mate, do they get braodband in trailer parks?
PS. It was a hillbilly (Al Gore) who invented the Internet.