Anomalies

[Raffles]

Originally posted by matski
Playing fees and paint prices are higher in this country due to the simple fact that their are less players, and therefore fewer across which to spread overheads. The situation will only improve as more and more consumers become regular players...

This is exactly what I was talking about (sort of). It's the good old catch-22. But, unless manufacturers decied to take a cut in profits and actually charge a realistic price for their prodcts (I'm not saying all do this - but a lot do inflate their prices to current market trend rather than a realistic price - maybe it's time to get Amstrad involved in paintball - ever heard of 'rip off britain'?).

If manufacturers insist on keeping their prices high - then only a select few we be able to afford them. If the prices are brought down - then they would sell more - therby, creating a bigger marketplace for themselves - and they will be investing in the future of UK paintball.

As much as a lot of people don't like SP - this is exactly what they have done with the ION. Get the new people hooked - then sell them add-ons further down the line. Simple marketting to me.

Now, if paint manufacturers could only do the same...then, the field owners etc. etc.

I did say that I would love £10 paintball - but I also said that it won't happen any time soon.

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Raffles


If manufacturers insist on keeping their prices high - then only a select few we be able to afford them. If the prices are brought down - then they would sell more - therby, creating a bigger marketplace for themselves - and they will be investing in the future of UK paintball.
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OK, here's the crux of it then, the basis of your 'nearly free ball for young players' angle.

So, what the industry needs to do is to subsidise young players so that they can train up, get good and get on good sponsored team, so they get their gear, paint etc. free. And that helps the industry how, exactly? You're not creating a bigger market, you're creating more tournament players - not the same thing at all.

Paintball, IMO, is more like skiing and boarding than anything else if you want to compare it to an existing model. Your average boarder will probably partake in his/her chosen activity 10 - 15 days a year and they'll buy their own gear, which they will update reasonably frequently.

Your average baller will probably play 10 - 15 days a year and they'l buy their own gear, which they will update reasonably frequently.

Neither of these groups will ever compete, and they won't really want to.

And that is the snowboard and Paintball industry's perfect consumer.

Does tournament Paintball really help the industry? At the moment, I'd say no, quite the opposite. I see no incentive for anyone in the industry to encourage people to become serious tournament players; I see every incentive in encouraging them to become regular recreational players. If I was a manufacturer or field owner, that's where all my efforts would be being expended.

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Capitalist manufacturers?

Originally posted by matski
Red Ring Inflictor - I totally see your point, but if you think about it in terms of how much you get, for how much you pay: It might cost a team around £3000+ to go play an NPPL, at which they will play a few, several minute games. And if you lose to a pro team, it usually means your team could not dominate, and you couldn't see **** all anyway. Or they could spend that £3000 on paint and get **** loads more trigger time.

I spoke to Marcus Davis (a very successful captain for those who don't know) about the same subject a few weeks ago. He said that he didn't see why people want to go over to the states to get their arses handed to them, when they cannot even claim to be the undisputed champs of the UK, or Europe. Which makes alot of sense, as until a team over here is so good that they are feared, and seen as near unbeatable by anyone they have to play-what chance do they have in the states...

I think your point is the best counterpoint to what I said but the main thing I wanted to say is that European paintball needs to have the top sides over whether it be Russian Legion (somehow) or the Americans. If a relative abundance of American teams showed up in Europe then the Euroballers could have the best of both worlds: one could see who the top dogs are in Europe while mixing it up with the likes of XSV, Dynasty, etc.

I had the opportunity to talk to some of the Stockholm Ignition guys at the end of last season and I asked them if they thought it a complete waste of time to have to play their first games at every EXL against Russian Legion because of the seeding. There answer was a resounding "no". They claimed to have learned a lot by getting their asses handed to them and it really shows in their results this season.

Of course playing in America is a costly affair for Euros but I hope Americans could find it worthwhile to travel to Europe and that would be the best for you guys IMO.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Paintball's biggest problem in the UK is a complete lack of any real entry level. Somewhere that a complete novice can have a competitive game (walk on and rec just doesn't cut it). Even King of the Hill etc.... sees teams competing with no cap on equipment.
I don't get the soccer analogies for paintball, they just don't compare, paintball (financially) is more like motor racing i.e. the initial set up and support fees are prohibitive. But, in motor racing, you work your way up, from relatively cheap events like carts or stock to the heights of nascar, formula one etc...... not so with paintball, how can such a high tech sport have no recognised division in kit? Realistically, a team could set up for about £150 a head with bog standard markers (less if they buy real crap) and learn the basic skills etc.. but, what's the point when you can show up in the bottom division of a local event and face teams with £1200 worth of equipment each?
No entry level, no way for anyone to just pick up the game. Think about it, the prime concern with the vast majority of new upcoming UK ballers is not 'how do I improve' but 'how will I afford a decent marker'.
It would be no different if the motor racing world decided to drop all classification and make all events 'open'.
So, biggest problem facing new ballers? Finding £400 plus of kit before they've even played a competitive game.
Entry level, that's what we need. Give paintball a learning curve rather than the cliff face we currently have.

 

[garycarrot]

I do not think thats fair....Whats the difference between an ion and a angel g7???? in performance, or money???

I think the first problem is getting to know about tournament ball. Most people only know about rec ball.

If sites ran along the tournament style ball instead of woods rec ball would that make a difference??

I think it would.

 

[JM #036]

but site owners make sweet FA out of tourney players. All the money at sites is from paint. Buying a box for £15 and selling it for £7 a 100 for £120 a box!

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by sjt19

Many people believed the hype that the NPPL generated, but little has become of participating in the league. If you were to ask Robbo, Warren from the Tigers, Laurent, Russ or Magued, then I doubt that any of them could actually produce a major benefit of playing in the NPPL.

In that sense, from the point of view of Nexus, the NPPL has given me nothing that Pgi hasn't already given me ten times over.

The NPPL gives Nexus an arena in which to strut and that arena has been paid for by us teams and so it as an arena that we have paid for not just in entry fees but also our presence and all the attendant expenditure that entails.
The NPPL promise of outside sponsors, mainstream TV and unparalleled promotion just hasn't materialised so when I look at the Nexus balance book, it makes pretty grim reading and is only rescued by Pgi if we are to look at a team's returns aligned to the promotion of its brand.
To look at the coverage my team got in any of the TV programmes made was discouraginfg to say the least (and I'm being nice believe me) considering we have put in more than any other team but hey, that's how it goes sometimes.

Originally posted by matski

I spoke to Marcus Davis (a very successful captain for those who don't know) about the same subject a few weeks ago. He said that he didn't see why people want to go over to the states to get their arses handed to them, when they cannot even claim to be the undisputed champs of the UK, or Europe. Which makes alot of sense, as until a team over here is so good that they are feared, and seen as near unbeatable by anyone they have to play-what chance do they have in the states...

Matski, it ain't really got anything to do with being feared or even being number one over here, it's all about attaining a level of competence and then competing.
If we look at the top 3 teams over here and for the sake of poliitical politeness, call them A, B and C, and let's suppose A is the top kiddie in the UK, does that mean B and C cannot go to the US to compete merely because they cannot call themselves the best in the UK beause at the moment mate, we got two UK teams sitting in equal 10 th spot and they can't both be the A team.
You get my point ?

And let's face it, Nexus ain't really getting our ass handed to us, we beat XSV and Oakland last time out, all I need to is get us playing more consistent against weaker opposition, I don't really know how elusive that is gonna prove to be but if we crack it, we will be up there (maybe not winning but up there).

But maybes our fate now lies over here, I don't honestly know which way it's gonna slide and as 2006 fast approaches, all I can see is turmoil and indecision and the decisions some people do actually make, defy belief, still, this is what we have all now come to expect I suppose.

Hannibal

 

[JoseDominguez]

Originally posted by garycarrot
I do not think thats fair....Whats the difference between an ion and a angel g7???? in performance, or money???

I think the first problem is getting to know about tournament ball. Most people only know about rec ball.

If sites ran along the tournament style ball instead of woods rec ball would that make a difference??

I think it would.

Look at what I posted...... £400 quid and an ion, with a mask, bottle and hopper will set you back around £400, I'm talking about true entry level....... site level kit, stuff anyone could pick up. And then play on a level field.
And running tourney games at sites..... sounds like a good idea, until they get their paint bills.
How many sites are going to do this at a realistic price? And remember, a lot of punters pay to have fun and play in the woods, not play a competitive tourney.
We need to identify enthusiastic rec-ballers and introduce them to the tourney side of things, only way to do this realistically is have real entry level tournies that don't put them off before they are hooked. Think about it, how many established teams enter competitions and are then forced to pull out due to lack of numbers?
It's crap, every site has hundreds of players a month..... and we can't manage to keep teams going?
All it takes is a little effort and a sponsor who's prepared to give you some leeway (y'know remove the .... never tell the punters how much you pay for paint).
That's how we managed to take three teams to simply the best last weekend. We grab new players from the rec-sites all of the time. And we manage to keep them playing, but that requires support from our sponsor and the rest of the team. (we took a box of new ions as spares and loaned our spare markers out). But without that sort of support, how does a new player get into paintball? A couple of rec-days at £70 or so, followed by a six months of saving for a marker.
Think about it, the player base is there, punters have booked, showed up and pulled out the cash..... what do we then do to bring them over to our side? See paintball as a sport and not an expensive treat? Play air ball with them by all means, but no amount of bouncy castle action is going to convince them to play if they then have to pull out a small fortune for paint.
I'll put it this way, if I challenged you to find 10 punters in the next two months, for an airball tourney with site markers (at tourney paint prices). I bet you could do it, in fact, I bet most site sponsored teams could do it.... how many prospective tourney players is that then?

So why don't we?
Entry level tourney, site sponsored teams of promising punters using site kit. Maybe get some established teams along to watch, marshal and head hunt?

Offer on the table. I can't think of a better way of encouraging new players into the sport than to give them an affordable day of competitive paintball.

 

[Liz]

Originally posted by Ca$hMoney
but site owners make sweet FA out of tourney players. All the money at sites is from paint. Buying a box for £15 and selling it for £7 a 100 for £120 a box!

Cashmoney - you need to understand how the economics of running a site works! The "game fee" doesn't cover the costs of having the players on site by a long way, and this difference HAS to be made up by charging more on paint. By the time the site operator has paid rent, insurance, office facilities, storage for equipment, cleaning & repair of kit, food, tea/coffee etc, replacement of old kit, vehicles and their running costs, site maintenance, stationery, phone bills, advertising; how much has that cost them per rental customer? Then add in the cost of staffing the day divided between the average number of customers. Then bear in mind they somehow have to not only pay back what it's cost them to buy all the kit to start up with, and after ALL those bills they do have to have something for their own time to pay for luxuries like the mortgage, food, clothes etc.

Ask a friendly site owner just how much paint they have to sell per rental customer at £5, £6 or £7 per hundred before they can break even!

And these site owners that "should" be doing something to promote tournament ball to their customers - what's in it for them, apart from losing however many potential returns to a different aspect of the sport?

 

[Matski]

Pete

I agree with you entirely that here and now a team does not have to be the very best here to go over and compete in the states, all have equal right to be there. However in terms of the future, it's all about natural selection in the pro div, only the best will survive. For a team to stay in the top nppl div, and hopefully progress, will require them to step up a gear. Both can compete, but in the long-run something has to give...maybe it will be the one that becomes most consistent for example, as you suggest is needed. But it will show over here, unless all improve at the same rate..

Having spoken to people who have followed your games throughout, I know how well Nexus are playing. Infact everyone says the improvement is very noticable. I didn't suggest you'd been getting your asses handed to you for a second mate, why would I when I know differently. The context was that for many years, generally, teams have wasted money going to the states when they were not ready for it.

On your last note.. maybe more decisions could get made if certain people would take the ramping padlock off the door