What we have is what we have and therefore the answer has to be yes, it is what we can make of it that's importanrt here.
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- Thread starter Robbo
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Having discussed this with Pete a few times in the last week, it has got me thinking.
Many people have absolutely no idea how much finance goes into running an pro team, either in the MS, or in the NPPL. The figures would shock (excuse the pun, it wasnt intended) many people. When you factor in that entry to the NPPL is about $2600 per event, and then car hire, and hotels, it all mounts up to an astronomical figure.
In the past two seasons, we (Shock) have spent about £40,000 IN AIRFARE ALONE! (9 NPPL tournanents, and a training weekend). Would that money have been better spent on training? Having taken into account how we have performed in the US this season, and over the last two years i would say that yes, it could have been better spent elsewhere.
Imagine how much training more, and better quality, Shock could have done if that £40,000 had been invested in an indoor training facility on the surface that was played on in Paris, or how many paintballs £40,000 could buy on top of our current allocation. (Approximately an additional 6 and a half million balls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) With that kind of paint allocation, regardless of whether it is sponsored or paid for outright, a team could do wonders for itself, akin to what the Legion have accomplished.
There were many reasons why we decided to focus on an NPPL top 18 spot, the prestige, the sponsorshiop oppertunities and spin offs it would offer us were all banded about at team training, and the NPPL was the route we chose to follow. Was it a correct decision? Maybe, maybe not. Has it been worth it? Probably not, but you live and learn.
Many people believed the hype that the NPPL generated, but little has become of participating in the league. If you were to ask Robbo, Warren from the Tigers, Laurent, Russ or Magued, then I doubt that any of them could actually produce a major benefit of playing in the NPPL. Respect from peers is a given, but does not pay bills. The NPPL does produce some of the best events in the world, but following the performance of Laurent in Paris, and the plans for Campaign Cup, maybe there is a change in the wind. Paris was by far the best event i have ever been to. It was paintball on a magnificent scale, in a magnificent venue, with genuine VIP's from bluechip industries taking an interest in the marketablilty and promotional benefits of associating their companies with paintball. With CC05 looking to be even better than Paris, no longer can the NPPL claim to have the best events in the world.
As long as the MS events and locations continue to improve, more teams like Nexus, Tonton, Shock, Joy and Tigers will shift their focus to Europe. If that happens, and i believe that it will, then all of European Paintball will benefit hugely, and the standard will increase substantially so that parity can be achieved with the Yanks. It will not happen overnight, and may take a few years, but there is no reason why if funds were diverted from elsewhere to training, from the US to the MS, then it is an easily achievable prospect.
There are many players in the UK with enough talent to form two or three world class teams, players who have the dedication and drive to achieve anything they set their collective minds to. The problem in the past has been that in order to achieve the kind of comittment needed to challenge for 1st place, everything else has had to take a back seat. And i do mean everything. How often do young players live hand to mouth existances, living just for the weekend when they can play the next game, or train with their teams? How many ballers are so skint because they have ploughed all their money and time in to playing that they cant afford to do anything else?
I dont think that a lack of parity is neccasarily down to a lack of talent or comittment, merely a lack of infrastructure and resources.
Anyone with a solid coaching brain and years of paintball experience can do what the Legion have done, all that is needed is the resources to do so. Resources that are sadly lacking at the moment
Thoughts?
Many people have absolutely no idea how much finance goes into running an pro team, either in the MS, or in the NPPL. The figures would shock (excuse the pun, it wasnt intended) many people. When you factor in that entry to the NPPL is about $2600 per event, and then car hire, and hotels, it all mounts up to an astronomical figure.
In the past two seasons, we (Shock) have spent about £40,000 IN AIRFARE ALONE! (9 NPPL tournanents, and a training weekend). Would that money have been better spent on training? Having taken into account how we have performed in the US this season, and over the last two years i would say that yes, it could have been better spent elsewhere.
Imagine how much training more, and better quality, Shock could have done if that £40,000 had been invested in an indoor training facility on the surface that was played on in Paris, or how many paintballs £40,000 could buy on top of our current allocation. (Approximately an additional 6 and a half million balls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) With that kind of paint allocation, regardless of whether it is sponsored or paid for outright, a team could do wonders for itself, akin to what the Legion have accomplished.
There were many reasons why we decided to focus on an NPPL top 18 spot, the prestige, the sponsorshiop oppertunities and spin offs it would offer us were all banded about at team training, and the NPPL was the route we chose to follow. Was it a correct decision? Maybe, maybe not. Has it been worth it? Probably not, but you live and learn.
Many people believed the hype that the NPPL generated, but little has become of participating in the league. If you were to ask Robbo, Warren from the Tigers, Laurent, Russ or Magued, then I doubt that any of them could actually produce a major benefit of playing in the NPPL. Respect from peers is a given, but does not pay bills. The NPPL does produce some of the best events in the world, but following the performance of Laurent in Paris, and the plans for Campaign Cup, maybe there is a change in the wind. Paris was by far the best event i have ever been to. It was paintball on a magnificent scale, in a magnificent venue, with genuine VIP's from bluechip industries taking an interest in the marketablilty and promotional benefits of associating their companies with paintball. With CC05 looking to be even better than Paris, no longer can the NPPL claim to have the best events in the world.
As long as the MS events and locations continue to improve, more teams like Nexus, Tonton, Shock, Joy and Tigers will shift their focus to Europe. If that happens, and i believe that it will, then all of European Paintball will benefit hugely, and the standard will increase substantially so that parity can be achieved with the Yanks. It will not happen overnight, and may take a few years, but there is no reason why if funds were diverted from elsewhere to training, from the US to the MS, then it is an easily achievable prospect.
There are many players in the UK with enough talent to form two or three world class teams, players who have the dedication and drive to achieve anything they set their collective minds to. The problem in the past has been that in order to achieve the kind of comittment needed to challenge for 1st place, everything else has had to take a back seat. And i do mean everything. How often do young players live hand to mouth existances, living just for the weekend when they can play the next game, or train with their teams? How many ballers are so skint because they have ploughed all their money and time in to playing that they cant afford to do anything else?
I dont think that a lack of parity is neccasarily down to a lack of talent or comittment, merely a lack of infrastructure and resources.
Anyone with a solid coaching brain and years of paintball experience can do what the Legion have done, all that is needed is the resources to do so. Resources that are sadly lacking at the moment
Thoughts?
The difference is that it is much easier to move from one state to another than from the UK to the US. Most truly promising players end up moving to California unless they are from the New Jersy, Pennsylvannia, Florida, or Chicago areas. Some great players out in the wastelands in between move to one of these lesser hubs, too. Those areas all have greater population densities than the UK, I imagine, but the important thing is that it is easier for some prodigy in North Dakota to go play for Aftershock in Chi-town than for a prodigy in Liverpoole to go play for Strange in Florida. So there is something complicating your player base problem.
I think here in the states we also have a greater opportunity for those so called "young prodigy's" to get noticed & recruited, due to a very large local/regional tournament base. There are so many options for one to choose, depending on skill level, sponsorships, & personal cash flow from the up & coming teams/players. Don't disregard the fact that the US is a very large country, & travel cost can also be very high for an east coast team to travel to the west coast (not to be compaired to the cost of crossing the big pond), so the up & coming teams can choose to attend tournaments in their general region until they are financially able to fund the larger venues or gain a major sponsorship deals to help offset the out of pocket cost. It's almost scary to see how much young talent is coming out of these local/regional feeder series. Those are the future faces of paintball. That's where the top US teams get injected with new blood from. The key is to have a strong base or foundation to be able to build from..and here in the states, there is a never ending stream of young talent coming from these series. I feel if Euro-paintball would grasp the same philosophy, in a few years there will be "many" great teams coming to the forefront.
With all the respect in the world to Robbo and the frequent posters here, I've always thought it a given that the best way for a team to develop tournament playing ability is to play as much as possible against better teams. IMHO staying isolated tournament-wise is a little like self-abuse: somewhat satisfying but not necessarily the best preparation for the real thing.
It is true that Russian Legion developed their skills by a quantum leap during between-season 2003-2004 almost all on their own. But I wonder if their dallying around in the EXL last year really put them on the fast-track to world domination? (It probably helped some.) From what I've read and seen it seemed they were more or less just playing around like a cat with a captured mouse except when they came over and played X Ball against the strong teams like Dynasty. And I think their current experience in the NXL against the likes of Assassins has been what they've needed to put them on the top.
To me, ideally, frequent competition against teams like Legion, Dynasty, XSV, to name a few, would be the formula for Euro paintball to move up. Waiting til the end of the season to get blown away by teams who have played all season in a notch-higher environment is not the wisest path IMO.
I think it would be best for Euros for a league to get as many top American sides over there as often as possible. They want to go, some have the money, and awarding points for their efforts would most likely increase their attendance.
It is true that Russian Legion developed their skills by a quantum leap during between-season 2003-2004 almost all on their own. But I wonder if their dallying around in the EXL last year really put them on the fast-track to world domination? (It probably helped some.) From what I've read and seen it seemed they were more or less just playing around like a cat with a captured mouse except when they came over and played X Ball against the strong teams like Dynasty. And I think their current experience in the NXL against the likes of Assassins has been what they've needed to put them on the top.
To me, ideally, frequent competition against teams like Legion, Dynasty, XSV, to name a few, would be the formula for Euro paintball to move up. Waiting til the end of the season to get blown away by teams who have played all season in a notch-higher environment is not the wisest path IMO.
I think it would be best for Euros for a league to get as many top American sides over there as often as possible. They want to go, some have the money, and awarding points for their efforts would most likely increase their attendance.
Why is UK paintball in a bad way? Simple - "Too many players/teams all competing for the very small amount of money/prizes offered."
I have terrible trouble trying to get players to training days. Reason? No money for paint/fees etc. etc.
Most of my team are under 20 - and are either at school or college, hence, no real money comming in.
£35 is a lot of money to a 16-y-old (and that is just for starters). In fact, £35 is a lot to me
.
Until we (the UK paintball community) can offer near-free facilities and near-free paint to the 'youth' - then UK paintball will never again produce the likes of Banzai Bandits (showing my age now) etc.
Only the very few get most of their paintball free - and these are the teams at the top of the UK scene.
Unfortunately, it's mirroring the football league. The teams with the most money are the ones competing on the European stage (apart from the odd back-door teams) as these are the ones constantly finishing at the top of the premiership.
Unless the people with the money invest it back into younger players then UK paintball will simply return to the woods. To re-use my football analogy, Shaun Wright-Phillips is a perfect example of this.
To summarise : No money = no paintball
Simple really
I have terrible trouble trying to get players to training days. Reason? No money for paint/fees etc. etc.
Most of my team are under 20 - and are either at school or college, hence, no real money comming in.
£35 is a lot of money to a 16-y-old (and that is just for starters). In fact, £35 is a lot to me
.Until we (the UK paintball community) can offer near-free facilities and near-free paint to the 'youth' - then UK paintball will never again produce the likes of Banzai Bandits (showing my age now) etc.
Only the very few get most of their paintball free - and these are the teams at the top of the UK scene.
Unfortunately, it's mirroring the football league. The teams with the most money are the ones competing on the European stage (apart from the odd back-door teams) as these are the ones constantly finishing at the top of the premiership.
Unless the people with the money invest it back into younger players then UK paintball will simply return to the woods. To re-use my football analogy, Shaun Wright-Phillips is a perfect example of this.
To summarise : No money = no paintball
Simple really
D
duffistuta
Guest
Why should Paintballers be able to play their hobby for free? Can't think of any other sports that do...Originally posted by Raffles
Why is UK paintball in a bad way? Simple - "Too many players/teams all competing for the very small amount of money/prizes offered."
I have terrible trouble trying to get players to training days. Reason? No money for paint/fees etc. etc.
Most of my team are under 20 - and are either at school or college, hence, no real money comming in.
£35 is a lot of money to a 16-y-old (and that is just for starters). In fact, £35 is a lot to me
Until we (the UK paintball community) can offer near-free facilities and near-free paint to the 'youth' - then UK paintball will never again produce the likes of Banzai Bandits (showing my age now) etc.
Only the very few get most of their paintball free - and these are the teams at the top of the UK scene.
Unfortunately, it's mirroring the football league. The teams with the most money are the ones competing on the European stage (apart from the odd back-door teams) as these are the ones constantly finishing at the top of the premiership.
Unless the people with the money invest it back into younger players then UK paintball will simply return to the woods. To re-use my football analogy, Shaun Wright-Phillips is a perfect example of this.
To summarise : No money = no paintball
Simple really
free to play football with mates or ure college team etc
free to go down the park and play cricket or rugby
but i see what ure geting at duff
free to go down the park and play cricket or rugby
but i see what ure geting at duff
Duffy, you misunderstand mate. I didn't say 'free', I said 'nearly free' - meaning cheaper facilites, paint, etc. etc.
How much does it cost for a 'cheap' football - about £1 - then the local council provide the park and goalposts for free. Same for athletics. Most towns have some sort of 'running track' where athletes can train for free or for a very small fee.
If that footballer/athlete want to 'play' paintball - they are looking at £25 to play recball (if they can find a local site). At least £35 to play sup'air (even more rare site-wise).
Don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate people like Markie C and Gogger (Wrexham) trying their damned hardest to provide sup'air facilities at a next-to-nothing cost - but there aren't enough of these - and how many under-18's have a driving licence and a car to get to these?
What I'd love to see is where a 'youth' can play paintball for around £10 (including paint) - but, mostly due to the capitalism of maunfacturers etc, this isn't going to happen any time soon.
How much does it cost for a 'cheap' football - about £1 - then the local council provide the park and goalposts for free. Same for athletics. Most towns have some sort of 'running track' where athletes can train for free or for a very small fee.
If that footballer/athlete want to 'play' paintball - they are looking at £25 to play recball (if they can find a local site). At least £35 to play sup'air (even more rare site-wise).
Don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate people like Markie C and Gogger (Wrexham) trying their damned hardest to provide sup'air facilities at a next-to-nothing cost - but there aren't enough of these - and how many under-18's have a driving licence and a car to get to these?
What I'd love to see is where a 'youth' can play paintball for around £10 (including paint) - but, mostly due to the capitalism of maunfacturers etc, this isn't going to happen any time soon
.
Capitalist manufacturers?
Raffles-Playing fees and paint prices are higher in this country due to the simple fact that their are less players, and therefore fewer across which to spread overheads. The situation will only improve as more and more consumers become regular players, the efforts of the Campaign crew doing the kind of promoting we're seeing in Birmingham is a good start. But it's a drop in the ocean when you consider the kind of public interest you need to bring playing costs down to the levels your talking about.
If you want to play cheaper paintball, I suggest you find ways to make manufacturers happy-see some kind of benefit to selling you stuff cheaper...getting them x amount of extra custom through you per month for example
Red Ring Inflictor - I totally see your point, but if you think about it in terms of how much you get, for how much you pay: It might cost a team around £3000+ to go play an NPPL, at which they will play a few, several minute games. And if you lose to a pro team, it usually means your team could not dominate, and you couldn't see **** all anyway. Or they could spend that £3000 on paint and get **** loads more trigger time.
I spoke to Marcus Davis (a very successful captain for those who don't know) about the same subject a few weeks ago. He said that he didn't see why people want to go over to the states to get their arses handed to them, when they cannot even claim to be the undisputed champs of the UK, or Europe. Which makes alot of sense, as until a team over here is so good that they are feared, and seen as near unbeatable by anyone they have to play-what chance do they have in the states...
Raffles-Playing fees and paint prices are higher in this country due to the simple fact that their are less players, and therefore fewer across which to spread overheads. The situation will only improve as more and more consumers become regular players, the efforts of the Campaign crew doing the kind of promoting we're seeing in Birmingham is a good start. But it's a drop in the ocean when you consider the kind of public interest you need to bring playing costs down to the levels your talking about.
If you want to play cheaper paintball, I suggest you find ways to make manufacturers happy-see some kind of benefit to selling you stuff cheaper...getting them x amount of extra custom through you per month for example
Red Ring Inflictor - I totally see your point, but if you think about it in terms of how much you get, for how much you pay: It might cost a team around £3000+ to go play an NPPL, at which they will play a few, several minute games. And if you lose to a pro team, it usually means your team could not dominate, and you couldn't see **** all anyway. Or they could spend that £3000 on paint and get **** loads more trigger time.
I spoke to Marcus Davis (a very successful captain for those who don't know) about the same subject a few weeks ago. He said that he didn't see why people want to go over to the states to get their arses handed to them, when they cannot even claim to be the undisputed champs of the UK, or Europe. Which makes alot of sense, as until a team over here is so good that they are feared, and seen as near unbeatable by anyone they have to play-what chance do they have in the states...