A Question....

[Baca Loco]

Yes, well...

Originally posted by rancid

My point was, everyone takes blah blah as a cheat... it's like some irrefutable fact... as though it has been proven in court. As though it is written in stone; as though it is one of the paintball commandments...
I didn't anticipate you would take it so literally.

I didn't take it so literally, I simply responded in kind. Nobody on this thread who has disagreed has spoken to the points raised they have only tried to trivialize the arguement.
It seems to me everyone but TJ is simply running away from the issue or changing the subject and if it isn't worth dealing with why bother to respond at all?

All in all, I think things are looking up and all we really have left is sporadic occurrences of bad behaviour, well if that's all we got left, we ain't doing that bad are we, despite what some people would have us believe !!!
Robbo

Nice to see this thread has managed to solve the problems of paintball. Now Robbo can return to talking about himself exclusively.
Moo

 

[Cenobite]

I think the point was that every sport has cheating in some form or another, on a whole however it is most likely is a minority thing. When I seriously think, for all the cheating Ive seen in my 10/11 years of paintball in the UK, Ive seen countless more fair players. However which ones stick in your mind? The cheats everytime. It doesnt mean that everyone does it all the time. Have I ever cheated? The closet I think is when I couldnt decide if a hit was a hit or spray, I judge rec-ball but I still couldnt decide, I gave myself the benefit of the doubt. Can anyone say they have never been tempted? I know Ive been tempted, but my conscience would spoil any victory that was achieved through cheating.

Lets face it unless someone insists on players having circuit boards in their heads that prevent cheating (like the chips in south park movie? as if!) then cheating will always happen, in paintball, soccer, basketball, whatever . All we can do is try to minimise this via the rules, and good marshall/judges and most importantly I think as individuals maintain our own integrity, and insist on always playing an honest game.

 

[rancid]

Hey baca - which point are you referring to, the first one or the second or third? Presumably you mean your point?

Originally posted by Baca Loco

My objection has been and remains that the mag elevates players without regard to how they play if they have a certain rep or if they have friends among the journalists......simply NEVER mention by name any player the editors and staff consider to be a non-clean player.
As it stands now the mag routinely gives it's imprimatur to plenty of "stars" who have questionable standards of play and that's one of the ways this sort of conduct is passed on to the next generation of player. "X is a superstar and I saw him wiping..."


But who is to decide who is clean and not? Is it a case of taking someone's word for it? How many times do you have to get penalty pointed before you go on the black list? I think I must be naive, but I've seen about three people wipe over 14 years... yet to listen to others everyone in the winning team is a wiping bstrd.

pgi whitewashes.... where? what? specifics may help... cos the amount of complaints I get would suggest the opposite. But if you think we should print blah blah is a cheat on someone else's say so...

C'mon give us some examples... ie things you have seen.

Cheers

 

[TJ Lambini]

Specific - that Frank whassisname

ex-All As, now Jax Warriors. Monsieur Brockdorff informs me he is probably the single best centre-back player in tha game, but he doesn't get props in tha mags because, from speaking to an awful lot of people, he has a tendency to be an ******* who causes major problems at events.

This reputation is well-known and journos do not tend to 'blow smoke up his ass' despite his abilities. I know what Baca is getting at and I agree with him - more kids, more players, more at stake, more responsibility for journos. But as Rancid says, we need one or more of our journos to see a guy wipe/whatever on several occassions. And we need those instances to be cut and dried. And we need to be 100% sure our writer doesn't have/isn't perceived to have an axe to grind with the individual/team.

Cheats of yesteryear...there was one guy outta French team Hellwood who cheated so bad I couldn't believe it, but his team cut him so that was cool. Only time I nearly had to bust out some crazy Zen moves on tha field...

And who was that Nam guy??? I saw him cheat most times I watched him play back in tha day! Can't remember his name...Robo, you know...guy you really didn't like as I recall...

Some players used to be quite proud of their pre-planned cheating strategies and abilities to get away with stuff, and they weren't shy about telling people.

I agree with Robo that things are better now, but also agree with Baca that if a player is identified as a habitual cheat he shouldn't get personal mag coverage - or at least positive coverage.

peace

 

[Baca Loco]

Not even remotely--

quote from Rancid
But if you think we should print blah blah is a cheat on someone else's say so.../

--close to anything I've said and since you went back into the thread to quote my specific suggestion you know I have not advocated anything of the sort.
As to my opinion of the mag in the past feel free to simply discount that as I'm not about to spend the time to review archival issues of pgi to bolster my opinion to answer to a false premise in the first place.
As to your other questions, asked and answered.
As to what you've seen or not seen perhaps a new prescription is in order.
Moo

 

[TJ Lambini]

That is so unfair

His vision is 20/20 - but it's hard for anyone to see stuff in tha hotzone from tha back tape...

I'd be interested to hear what sort of policy you'd implement on a paintball mag, and how you'd do it...

peace

 

[Robbo]

Baca Who ????

Baca, you know what ?
I would have a damn lot more respect for you if you came out from under that cloak of anonymity, all the time you wussy-boy out of it and continue with this charade, it just pisses me off !!
I stand up and say my piece, like it or lump it, you know where it's coming from.
My agendas are there for every one to see and acknowledge but someone like yourself who makes a point of contesting with me, Rancid, Jerry and who ever, needs to grow some balls and de-cloak.
Jerry and myself have differing opinions as to your identity but what is 100% certain is that you are well known in the industry and to both Jerry and I but choose to hide like a girl behind the veil of Baca Loco.
Now Baca, or is it Mancow or is it Steve or is it Bif again ?....the list goes on.
As far as I am concerned, your posts are worth **** if you ain't got an identity because without one we have no reference point for agendas or history!!!
And I'm sure that's the way you would wish it to remain, but hey Baca, you gotta grow up some time !!!
Now would be a good time I think !!
Robbo (that's my name)

 

[rancid]

Oh yes you did.... oh no I didn't...

Ok, sorry for misreading you... but I thought you were saying that if a player has a 'questionable standard of play' we shouldn't cover him, despite the fact we've never seen it. Hold on a second, that's exactly what you said.

Baca, my personal problem is that I've seen whole teams face each other off; I've seen 200 spectators swear blind a guy is hit and has lost it... I've seen the same incident from three feet away and know he wasn't hit in the first place. By the time the tourney is over the whole world thinks this geezer's a wiper. By the next tourny, he's earmarked - he aint got a chance. When you've seen that as many times as I have, you take everything with a pinch of salt. I guess you must have seen similar.

The whitewash comment. It's a pity you haven't got the time to explain where we've done this... which is ironic, cos it's almost like accusing somone of cheating.

Alright, bollox to one side, I think the essence of what you're saying is well worth debating, but I think you should perhaps work on your social skills, cos you sometimes come over as a little bit arrogant.

Perhaps it's the time of year, we all seem to be on edge at the moment.

Here's to us all getting on better... even if we disagree... especially if we disagree.

 

[TJ Lambini]

I don't think it's out of proportion, but I do think less cheating goes on than back in tha woods. However, the cheating that does go on is more visible cos of tha nature of concept fields.

Still think the term 'cheating' should only apply to wiping and deliberate gun cheats...most other stuff is like fouling someone if football or accidental handball; an infringement but not a cheat as such...

peace

 

[Robbo]

Out of proportion ?

Originally posted by Nick Iuel-Brockdorff
I don't think the "cheating issue" is out of proportion.

I think we are on a slippery slope, that the major magazines could/should do their bit to spread some gravel on (WOW - just came up with that one all by myself...).

I remember waaaay back when... in the good old days... in the woods.... at Mayhem.... when an Ironman was caught wiping.

This was a really big deal, not only because it was an Ironman, but also because SOMEONE was caught wiping...... it was the talk of the tournament.

Controvercy was brewing, which Bob Long instantly cut off, by cutting the player in question for good, right there and then.

(props to him for that descision !)

If the same happened today, most people would just shrug and say "oh well, **** happens..... people do what they need to do, to win in this sport".

To me that is a MAJOR change over a very short period of time.... and a change that has not yet run its course.

Our sport has lost it's viginity, and there is no way to get it back... but let's at least try to stop it from becoming a whore !

Nick

Nick, I don't ever remember it happening at Mayhem to the Ironmen but I do remember it happening in Pittsburgh, I think this must be the incident to which you refer.
The offending player was Marty Fish and ‘yes’ he was cut at that tournament, but I tell ya something, if it had been Shaner, YB, Brahim, Marty Bush or Bryon, the same action would never have been taken.
Marty Fish in that instance was a convenient sacrificial lamb to the greater good, or in this case, the PR need of the Ironmen in an embarrassing situation.
Now, wiping in those days was a lot more prolific for many reasons not least of which was opportunity, with most games being played in the woods, so things ain't getting worse at all.
What you perceive as a corrosion of moral fortitude when dealing with wipers is more of a pragmatic approach when dealing with cheats.
I hate wipers, I really do, but I wouldn't want to see guys lose their spots on a team for one mistake that at times can be explained by a knee jerk response albeit a wholly inappropriate one.
I will qualify this by saying, that any player caught wiping twice should suffer something like being cut from the team but a one off offence?
Nah, too strong mate, too strong !!
Pete