A Question....

[Matski]

Nobody is going to stop players wiping by making the penalties worse or liberal.
Since concept began, the quality of judging has increased, the fields are more open and play is far more tactical. Many would say that this has helped to control cheating, which to a degree it has. However, players have also become better at wiping. Take the amazing 7ft dive/slide into barricades for example....players know they are hit but 'accidentally', 'lose' the shot while making the move.....so how do you expain that, is that cheating, playing on or what? Afterall you cant call it wiping because theres no way anybody can prove it was intentional and the player knows it.
They also know that at worst they will just be pulled, at best (most of the time) they will continue with their game, cutting up the other team and winning without having a single shot left on them.

I dont know how many of you walk around with your eyes closed but I dont, I have also been fortunate enough to mix with some of THE best in the game....ive heard the tricks and seen them done. Dont try to bull**** me.

In my opinion the kind of cheats that need exposing are blatant wipers, just dont forget theres infringing and cheating and that some are always going to get away with too much. If people are gonna go publically accusing top players of cheating then they better have their facts straight.....and that Lasoya example, was a very bad one!

 

[Baca Loco]

Not my ox

Originally posted by rancid
Ok, sorry for misreading you... but I thought you were saying that if a player has a 'questionable standard of play' we shouldn't cover him, despite the fact we've never seen it. Hold on a second, that's exactly what you said.

Perhaps it's the time of year, we all seem to be on edge at the moment.

Here's to us all getting on better... even if we disagree... especially if we disagree.

Hold on, Rancid. You added the caveat "despite the fact we've never seen it," not me. I never said you should out cheaters nor did I say you should indescriminently choose not to cover a player. I did offer the suggestion that the mag might consider including an evaluation of how a player plays the game as an element of editorial discretion if the mag is going to routinely and pointedly make an issue of fair play because to do otherwise sends, at a minimum, a mixed message.
If I have come off badly perhaps it's me and perhaps in part it's because I am criticizing the mag to some extent. For my part I apologise.
I am not however saying this is something you should or shouldn't do. I am saying I think it's important the mag present itself and it's editorial voice consistently, and that's just my opinion.

Robbo
This will apparently disappoint you but in paintball I am absolutely "nobody." My name is Paul Richards and I'm co-captain of a Florida team. (If you'll email my listed email account I'll send you my personal email so you can confirm any particulars you like. And as I told Beaker awhile ago I'll look you guys up in Pitts in August.)

PS--Does this mean TJ will be the next to de-cloak?

 

[Robbo]

Intent

Originally posted by Nick Iuel-Brockdorff
Pete
As already established in another thread, we both agree cheating in paintball is defined by being intentional.
By that standard, people should get no second chances (right away).
Point here is not so much what judges do though.... it is more how we (the writers) react when we see someone cheat intentionally... and just for the sake of good order, let's not go down the road of the difficulty determining what is intentional or not - at least not in this debate.
If we can all write when someone does something great, we should also be able to write when someone is "bad".... and the players we all know who are, that we have seen cheat intentionally and blatantly numerous times, should not get the time of day in the magazine !
Nick

I will ignore for the time being that you ignored most of the points I had made as a rebuttal to your post....
Anyway, I don't have to tell you the effect a policy of 'name and shame' would have on the industry and sport as a whole.
Don't be naive Nick and please don't ask me to spell it out for you, we have a sport where the moral high ground is sometimes conveniently taken for people's own ends, least of which is the good of the game, which is ironic because I seem to be implying that to hold back from a 'name and shame' policy is a better route for the sport to take at the moment.
This problem arises because our moral positioning is out of sync with the realities of the game we play.
It's alright givin it the Billy big' un from the pulpit with regard to cheating, just as long as all aspects of the game and industry are all singing from the same song book (sorry about mixing metaphors)...and we ain't mate !!!
People like Baca, can and do, make seemingly valid points on the back of an assumed but not necessarily, genuinely held belief but I believe somewhere along the line, we have to look at our sport in the context of others and with regard to human nature when assessing the true problem with cheats and its reporting.
Pete

 

[Robbo]

Not my ox

Originally posted by Baca Loco

Robbo
This will apparently disappoint you but in paintball I am absolutely "nobody." My name is Paul Richards and I'm co-captain of a Florida team. (If you'll email my listed email account I'll send you my personal email so you can confirm any particulars you like. And as I told Beaker awhile ago I'll look you guys up in Pitts in August.)
PS--Does this mean TJ will be the next to de-cloak?

Baca, if in fact you are who you say you are, then I and jerry Braun and a few others are completely and utterly wrong which as far as I know would be one hell of an achievement in fooling that lot.
But, hey, the world is a strange place and if you are telling the truth then I will be buying the drinks in Pitts all night, now, not in any way am I calling you a liar, but I have yet to be convinced.
Still, that will be a drink that both Jerry and I will not mind buying.
By the way, the name of the Florida team ?
And also I have some good friends down that way, you know Todd Adamson at Extreme Rage or Rocky and 2E from up Jacksonville way at Warped Sportz?
Maybe even Steve Davison at Pro Team ?
More importantly, do they know you ?
If so, pray tell
As a finale to this, if you are who you say, then I will duly and rapidly apologise for anything and everything I have said regarding your de-cloaking
Robbo
PS I really do hope you are telling the truth
PPS TJ as you know is self-evidently a spoof character and heavily aligned with PGI, that is proof enough for the purposes of posting on this board J

 

[Baca Loco]

What, email not good enough for you?

Robbo
Bring a wad of cash or a high limit card. Team is Voodoo. I have, at one time or another, run into most everyone who plays ball in Florida. Some more frequently than others. Would those named know me by name? I doubt it. Would they recognize me on the field? Might, though I couldn't pick Davison out of a line-up but it doesn't mean I haven't run into him before. Just don't know. Last time I saw 2E we were shooting at each other at WC on the Diablo field and last time I saw Todd was at Ft. Myers before LA when Strange, AA's and others were down for a 10-man practice.
Moo

PS--Re: TJ. Omigod!!!

 

[Robbo]

What, email not good enough for you?

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Robbo
Bring a wad of cash or a high limit card. Team is Voodoo. I have, at one time or another, run into most everyone who plays ball in Florida. Some more frequently than others. Would those named know me by name? I doubt it. Would they recognize me on the field? Might, though I couldn't pick Davison out of a line-up but it doesn't mean I haven't run into him before. Just don't know. Last time I saw 2E we were shooting at each other at WC on the Diablo field and last time I saw Todd was at Ft. Myers before LA when Strange, AA's and others were down for a 10-man practice.
Moo
PS--Re: TJ. Omigod!!!

Baca, you puzzle me, on one hand you are very and I mean, very well informed on issues that I would think are well beyond most paintballer's experience.
Secondly, for somebody so well versed, it seems slightly convenient that your encounters with those people I have mentioned can best be described as vague or occasional.
Also, Hotmail accounts, such as the one you have, are, as you well know, absolutely no use whatsoever in determining anything least of all somebody's identity.
Hmmmm, still not convinced but, tell me more about your team Voodoo, whereabouts in Florida do they hail from and what tournaments have they attended down there ?
Robbo (On your case )

 

[rancid]

Hey look, everyone's back on an even keel!

Baca... but that's what you meant. Policy? Consistency? At risk of sounding contrary, I wont lose any sleep reading diametrically opposed views only two pages apart, but take your point.

Ok, before I have to leave for my eye test appointment, three quick (and dodgy) opinions...

1) Paintball needs its bad boys. Personally, I don't have a problem with the biggest cheat in the world also being my favourite player (soccer analogy = Maradona).

2) Aren't we asking of paintball something that no other sport can boast - to be cheat/foul free? And isn't this expecting too much when the lesson we see everyday on tv is that if the ref aint watching, bingo; if he is, you're ****ed?

3) PGi to run a league table of penalties over the season. Rack it up at the end and see who's the dirtiest team around.... now why do I think you guys will say the best cheats never get noticed? (Except, of course, by you.)

It's about time that we ran a Heroes & Villains supplement... but then I've been saying that for months now.

Right, can someone guide me to the door.

 

[Baca Loco]

Not bleeding rocket science

Robbo
What I volunteered previously was to send you my personal email account if you would contact my forum listed account. Would rather not post it here as I give that account only to friends, teammates and certain business associates. Should you wish to do that I will happily reply to any and all queries. As to what goes on in the world of paintball all you gots to do is read a little bit, think a little bit, and...

Rancid
Don't think there's any inconsistency in views I offered. I also think such a policy while problematic wouldn't be a bad thing but I won't be wringing my hands and gnashing my teeth over it.
1) fine but with Maradona nobody ignores or fails to mention the bad along with the good.
2) You would see if you wanted to waste your time in checking that I have always held that the way to deal with cheating, both intentional and infractional, is to simply enforce the rules in as consistent and unbiased a manner as possible and not worry about somebody else's intentions. The fact I think it would be a good thing to diminish publicizing "cheats" has less to do with integrity of the game than it does the integrity of the mag and how readers view it. And as TJ has said, the mag is in a position to influence up and coming players and if the mag is going to have a point of view, then ought to have a thought out, unified point of view.
3) Don't know about that end of season talley but I can assure if teams thought certain rules violations would be publicized they'd be a lot more aggressive in dealing with their own players.
And the problem hasn't been guys getting away with cheating sight unseen, the bigger problem has been a failure when seen to make the calls depending on who and what team is in violation. It breeds apathy, cynicism and imitation.
Moo

 

[TJ 2]

"TJ is a spoof character"

I am?

Wait 'til my mom finds out, she'll be soooooo ashamed.

I'm gonna have to out myself..."Mom, I got something to tell you, I'm....I'm...unreal."

Sooooo not true Robo and you know I'm gonna kick your scrawny ass at Pittsburgh for that one. My fans know I'm the realest, baddest mofo on tha planet, so u better wrekkkanize...

peace

 

[rancid]

dead quick

Hey baca, talking about consistency in mag not your posts. I think it's encouraging that Nick, say, writes 'all cheats should be banned', whilst Robbo on the next page says 'playing on his part of the game'. This is about creating a magazine, not policing paintball. Integrity? Well that depends on which value set you subscribe to.

I can't fully agree (or possibly understand) you, cos I'm struggling with the definition of 'cheat'. I think playing on will become the same as tripping up the centre forward: if the ref sees me, I'm booked; if he don't I'll give him another dig. Occupational hazard. And unpalatable as that may seem, I think it's inevitable.

I'm keen to follow the bad boy league table - it will at least give us a reference point.

See you around.