15bps rant

[Steve Morris]

Like I alluded to before, I wonder if some of you who think that gun cheats haven't been a problem have attended the same events?

It is true that it is worse in some divisions worse than others. Many people talk about how Toulouse was such a fiasco because so many players got busted but almost no (if any) pro players got caught and many from Div I did. Yet when I review the Toulouse DVD I see clear examples of cheating guns, some shooting at enormous rates with only one finger! And that was right under my nose and I/we couldn't catch them and if we could we couldn't have been able to prove they were cheating.

And you say it's not a problem?

As for the wiping, I've reffed thousands of major league games and I've only seen one clearcut example of wiping. Now I know wiping does happen much more often than that but not nearly as much as the gun cheating and gun cheating has been growing like a cancer whereas wiping, I believe, is happening less because the reffing is getting better (and better reffing isn't going to stop the gun cheating because the problem is that the old rules are simply unenforceable).

So, at the end of the day, wiping IS a poor comparison because we are getting that more and more under control and the rules against it are enforceable whereas gun cheating has grown by leaps and bounds because more and more players learn how to get away with it.

I'll say again: if any of you don't think it's a problem is it because you're a gun cheater?

 

[A.B]

ok lets try this

What IS enforcable AND detectable with current technology available in paintball today?

Velocity

Balls per second

bounce


What ISN'T detectable or enforcable in paintball

Hidden cheater modes in guns

The key words are what is and what isn't

15bps assisted ramp from 6bps at 300 fps or less with no bounce IS is detectable and enforcable.

velocity - go over 300fps = heavily penalised

BPS- go over 15 bps = large fine and banning from tournaments

bounce- too light a trigger allowing accidental discharge = gun not allowed in play untill it is fixed

I have played most of the D7 events last year - i HAVE seen players with cheat modes or assistance in their guns, whether this is intentional or due to poor set up - it was still there and visible ( one was certainly assisted firing) bt it was not detectable and therefore no penalties could be applied.

What i have suggested above is enforcable and detectable- with maybe the only loophole being nxl style full auto enabled by hidden modes( but this is still capped at 15 bps and therefore offers only minor advantages as far as i can see)

If you think this new ruling will cause problems with the law- we already have that problem- the cheats are there using this technology. If the authorities found out we currently have no way of enforcing any kind of control - we'll get jumped all over.

So lets get a enforcable and detectable rule, use it and enforce it.

A.B

 

[Steve Morris]

Another thought about Famine's statement about making cheats legal: if the rules are changed then it wouldn't be cheating. Example: If a tournament was pump-only then semis would be illegal. But if the rules are changed to allow semis then anyone who wants and could afford could legally use semis and nobody would say we're legalizing cheating.

Now the cheaters have been getting away with shooting illegally in the 20+ range. Shooting 15 is fast but it certainly isn't unplayable. It didn't seem to change NXL's game very much except that all the players and refs were glad that the playing field was made level rather than giving only the cheaters the advantage.

It's not legalizing cheating; it's just a change. And I submit that it might be a stop-gap measure until such time someone comes up with a better solution.

BTW, Those who follow the different threads on this forum (and others) know that many of us have made a lot of effort over the past couple of years to come up with a workable solution. This is the best we can come up with so far. The debate is an open one but you're wasting your time if you just keep repeating the same arguments AGAINST over and over and don't come forth with some realistic suggestions for getting this under control.

 

[stongle]

I'd like to know where Famine gets his "majority" from?

Ain't no majority from what I'm seeing.

Steve's 100% correct on these guns being in widespread use, as I know I got help from my gun. I didn't use a cheat chip, just set it up to have subtle bounce at higher ROFs. Subtle enough to pass a chrono judge, but would definitely helped give me sustained strings on field. Most all the guns I played against were similar. I'm just not pigheaded enough to think that my mystical shoosting prowess came from "practice"

 

[FAMINE]

go back and count the threads mate, same names for, many names against.

Maybe a poll would help clarify?

As for the fact u change the rules to make rampin legal would mean there are no gun cheats, wouldnt the same apply for wiping??

It isnt a soloution really!!

Maybe a demonstration of this equipment would settle peoples minds?? A vid or something. I just know a lot of people who now fear being pulled due to a fast trigger pull.

Fined. penalised and banned for doing something they have trained for up to now. Why the hell penalise those that abide by the rules and train, rather than those that cheat. (waiting for the you think of something better response)

You worked hard for years for this??
Yet ramping is a relatively new issue,
capping has been addressed b4 (shocker days) and yet still wasnt implimented by industry.

Well u can impliment it if ya like (UK law permitting), penalise those that are honest and make as many we are mighty arguments as you like. I still feel this rule change is wrong, and a "make do" compromise. If a jobs worth doing, do it right

 

[Collier]

Originally posted by FAMINE
Mute point mate, as u just said "never gonna happen" and "If in the right spot"

So wiping does happen, isnt always caught and by the argument given for the gun cheat rule, should be made legal

Yes but theoretically it could happen, you CAN have a ref per player. And standing in the right spot isn't hard, it comes with experience!
So not a moot point just a crap comparrison!

 

[Intheno]

Its 'moot point' , not 'mute point' you uneducated imbeciles. If it was a 'mute point' it would be point-LESS as no-one would hear it, surely...

Anyway, putting all opinions to one side. Someone tell me how you can have a ramping gun rule in the UK when this would be against all home office regulations and be classed as a firearm, and could therefore not be insured. Isn't it illegal to run an uninsured event in the UK? The same as it is illegal to drive without insurance. And what happens when the insurance companies have a claim? Thats right, the premiums go up for everyone in the game. Got a paintball field? Still think its a good idea?

Surely the rules have to adhere to the laws of each country don't they? That has to be the starting point doesn't it? Having said that how can the UK decide that they will put a ramping rule into force? I don't get it.

and do you seriously think a sound activated device will work on a paintball field with 14 guns shooting, crowd noise and music, combined with any and all other ambient noise?
The NPPL tried this device out. It did not work. Period. The only guy I know who tested it and initially claimed it worked was testing in a controlled environment with no other noise distraction, he was also a sound-activated-device salesman, and even he had to admit that there was not a tool up to the job of detecting one gun amongst many so close together.
And you know what else? If the gun has a quiet signature, it won't register at all. So all you ballers out there just need to get your guns quieter, by dropping pressure and dwell, and you will have a stealth gun anyway. Thats the new cheat for the system for you and it isn't even in place yet.

So in short, it is another unenforcable rule.

Or does the UK have a better sensor device than the rest of the world? Or have you not actually tried it yet? In which case it would be a moot argument (see what I did there...)

 

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by FAMINE
As for the fact u change the rules to make rampin legal would mean there are no gun cheats, wouldnt the same apply for wiping??

You don't seem to be taking the little time necessary to read and address my counter-argument to that. I'll repeat: we're getting wiping more and more under control due to more professional refereeing (but there will always be some wiping). Gun cheating has grown more and more out of control DESPITE more professional refereeing because the rules have simply been unenforceable.

Originally posted by FAMINE
Maybe a demonstration of this equipment would settle peoples minds?? A vid or something. I just know a lot of people who now fear being pulled due to a fast trigger pull.

The equipment to measure ROF has been demonstrated to Russell Smith of PA, me and other Millennium people. I don't know where a video is to show you but you can read about the product NXL use at the following website: http://www.pact.com/mkiv.html. I assure you nobody will get pulled unless they exceed the limit. The instruments have been used by NXL at several events already and are being used by NXL and PSP as this is being written in LA.

Originally posted by FAMINE
Fined. penalised and banned for doing something they have trained for up to now. Why the hell penalise those that abide by the rules and train, rather than those that cheat. (waiting for the you think of something better response)

Sorry, I don't believe more than a few, if any, people in the world can legally pull a string at 15bps.

Originally posted by FAMINE
You worked hard for years for this?? Yet ramping is a relatively new issue, capping has been addressed b4 (shocker days) and yet still wasnt implimented by industry.

I didn't say I worked hard for years for this. I said several of us have been discussing this issue for a couple of years in attempt to find a workable solution. A forum search would show you that. The fact that the industry ignored their agreements about a cap proves the judging bodies must act because the industry and players have proved they can't be trusted.

Originally posted by FAMINE
If a jobs worth doing, do it right

Then tell us how to do it right! We're all ears. Leaving it alone is no longer an alternative, unless you're a cheater and prefer the status quo until all the others catch up.

 

[Collier]

Originally posted by Intheno
Its 'moot point' , not 'mute point' you uneducated imbeciles. If it was a 'mute point' it would be point-LESS as no-one would hear it, surely...

Anyway, putting all opinions to one side. Someone tell me how you can have a ramping gun rule in the UK when this would be against all home office regulations and be classed as a firearm, and could therefore not be insured. Isn't it illegal to run an uninsured event in the UK? The same as it is illegal to drive without insurance. And what happens when the insurance companies have a claim? Thats right, the premiums go up for everyone in the game. Got a paintball field? Still think its a good idea?

Surely the rules have to adhere to the laws of each country don't they? That has to be the starting point doesn't it? Having said that how can the UK decide that they will put a ramping rule into force? I don't get it.

and do you seriously think a sound activated device will work on a paintball field with 14 guns shooting, crowd noise and music, combined with any and all other ambient noise?
The NPPL tried this device out. It did not work. Period. The only guy I know who tested it and initially claimed it worked was testing in a controlled environment with no other noise distraction, he was also a sound-activated-device salesman, and even he had to admit that there was not a tool up to the job of detecting one gun amongst many so close together.
And you know what else? If the gun has a quiet signature, it won't register at all. So all you ballers out there just need to get your guns quieter, by dropping pressure and dwell, and you will have a stealth gun anyway. Thats the new cheat for the system for you and it isn't even in place yet.

So in short, it is another unenforcable rule.

Or does the UK have a better sensor device than the rest of the world? Or have you not actually tried it yet? In which case it would be a moot argument (see what I did there...)

Are you aware of the steps currently being taken with regards to the home office?

 

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Intheno
Someone tell me how you can have a ramping gun rule in the UK when this would be against all home office regulations...

The illegal gatts that are out there are also against the UK laws. Would you like me call them and tip them off to that fact? There have been discussions going on with the Home Office about the suggested ruling according to another thread here.

Originally posted by Intheno
and do you seriously think a sound activated device will work on a paintball field with 14 guns shooting, crowd noise and music, combined with any and all other ambient noise?

There are several people looking into upgrading the PACT Mk IV chrono with a much more directional microphone. I think the technology exists to make the device more localized, selective and sensitive, but I could be wrong. There are also others looking into making a total device themselves.

NXL tests before the games, between points and whenever a gun looks suspicious. Why don't you go have a look at the games in Pomona to see for yourself? All the refs have already become totally familiar with the sound of 15bps and can instantly jump on a gun that jumps above the limit.

Speaking of misspelling (which we all do here sometimes) their is not spelt "thier" and that's is the correct spelling when it's a contraction of "that is". Sorry, m8. (Now find my mistakes.)