Welcome To P8ntballer.com
The Home Of European Paintball
Sign Up & Join In

WORLD CUP news! Avalanche caught cheating!

manike

INCEPTIONDESIGNS.COM
Jul 9, 2001
3,064
10
63
Cloud 9
www.inceptiondesigns.com
I think we are pretty much in agreement...

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
So now you can see how the 'win at all costs' ethos could be counter-productive financially to sponsors?
It's never mattered before, we don't know if it will matter in the future, but it might. Let's hope it does and things get cleaned up.

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Exactly. And the exact same motivation is what lay behind doing Hyperball in the first place. Because they have a clear vision which is that they will only make big money when the sport is clean enough and professional enough to be viable to the real world...So WDP is on Tyger and Furby's side! And so are most of us, but it's getting clouded by the whole rec/tourney/Salm thang...
Agreed :)

And for them as sponsors that's important. I wonder if it will be the same for all sponsors? It's not at the moment, and will outside sponsors care if they still make money? Will having a 'bad boy part' where spectators get to see armbands being ripped off etc, possibly help in the same way it does in wrestling or football (uk) or ice hockey?

Often the crowd loves a bad boy.. or they love seeing em penalised etc...
 
Yes they do

Problem being in Paintball, uinlike in other sports, the bad boy gets away with it and goes onto win the game - and this is what public and sponsors won't wear.

All the armband ripping stuff, and the odd bonus ball in a grudge clash and a few hissy fits, that's all good as it adds character and heart, but ya gotta have a framework...
 

Furby

Naughty Paintball God
Mar 28, 2002
432
26
28
54
Norman Park, Georgia
www.thefordreport.com
I thought there was a reason Mr. Rice and I got along so well...great minds think alike, eh?

And another thing...trust me, cheating isn't limited to the pro's...around here, the TWiB factor is higher than normal, so even on a day of relaxed walk-on play I get to hone my pain-dispensing skills on some rat ******* who's out wiping hits and playing on. I took a hit at a scenario game about a month ago that just about knocked me off my feet...after a short argument with the ref about it, he went and field chrono'd the guy and sure enough he was shooting WAY hot.

Trust me, my agenda for cleaning things up includes ALL facets of the sport, which is what I cover and what I concern myself with, NOT just the Jeremy Salms of the world.
 

Cube

M2Q'd eblade or the LV1...decisions, decisions
May 4, 2002
920
99
63
Warrington
Originally posted by Robbo



Yeah I think you are right, Adams nailed it perfectly but I will take issue with the premise, 'nastiest players.......' !!!
My bad, I meant in the wider world of sports.

In every sport there is a "Bad Boy" and the crowds love them and hate them for it, they always seem to have sponsors lining up, whatever they do.

(cough)Roy Keane(cough):D
 
R

raehl

Guest
I think what TJ is hammering at...

Is that you can do things to have the best outcome in the near future (next week to next year), or you can do them to have the best outcome in 2-5 years. Most of the time, those arn't the same things. That's short-termism vs. long-termism.

There's also small picture vs. big picture. You can do things that cause you to perform well in the immediate environment, or you can do things that will cause you to do well in areas surrounding your immediate environemnt.


The problem is that tournament paintball is currently mostly a short-term, small picture endeavor. There are 10 or so pro teams, all of which are comprised of throw-away players, who have a fan base of tournament players. Most companies seem to be trying to have the winning team to reach the customers in the fan base. If you're looking at the immediate picture and the immediate environment, this makes sense.


The problem is that they are totally ignoring the real market, because it's outside of their short term, small picture view.


The real money is in players, including the 90% rec audience, and advertising/endorsement dollars from showing paintball as a sport, hopefully to people who may not even have ever played paintball before. THAT'S why the cheating has to be stopped. Most rec players, and even a good chunk of tournament players, know that cheating is a rampant problem at the pro level, which makes it very difficult to sell paintball as a sport. People arn't going to watch it if they don't think the people on the field are actually even playing the game.


It's why college paintball has fans. We'd lose playing pro teams. We'd lose bad. But there's plenty of people who'd rather watch us play because we're not wiping and fighting.


If the people in paintball really wanted to make a ****load of money, they'd make the tough long-term, big-picture choices. They'd stop sponsoring their buddies and the pro teams, go find 100 or so ATHLETES (not even necessarily people who play paintball), make them play fair, and run a league. They'd take the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year that goes into Dynasty and Avalanche and Aftershock and spend it on quality officiating, because good-enough players are inexpensive, but good officials are not.


Yeah, a lot of your pro-player friends are going to be pissed, yeah some one else's team who still gets the $200k sponsorship and allows cheaters to play will win and won't be wearing your logo...

But then everyone else might start taking you - and the sport - seriously. You might actually have non-players show up to spectate an event when they don't hate the people playing in it.

That's why you gotta stop the cheating - because if you don't, you'll never move past the small tournament-player fanbase to a spectator supported sport.

Hell, the NFL fines players $5,000 just for having their shirt untucked. $75,000 for tackling with the helmet first. Those arn't game fouls where you lose yardage, those are player choices that hurt the game that simply are not tolerated.

I can't see why it's so difficult to apply the same attitude to wiping or fighting. Because it isn't. It's just that when a player wipes or fights, but is important to his team's success, their sponsor currently picks the short-term, small-picuture solution: Ignore it, because that's how the team will win - even if the long-term, big picture, make a bunch of money solution is to get rid of all the players like that.


Know why there's no fighting in college paintball?

Because you can only get in one fight. Then you're gone forever.


Just blows my mind that paintball companies insist on spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a year supporting players who are ultimately preventing this industry from attaining tens millions of dollars a year in new market and advertising/endorsement revenue.


We need a few years of very strict penalties to clean up the mess we have now. Then maybe we can relax a bit and have something more like other pro leagues - but in the meantime, no player has anything to offer the sport that is worth putting up with any of their BS.


Oh, and I know it's possible, because it's already been done. That's why we can have 14 games of X Ball with only 4 penalties. Yeah, our players don't cheat, or even play the grey area, yeah, they get spanked when they play non-college events against teams who do play grey....

But we made the decision years ago that that was the only way we could make the most of ourselves in the long term, and it's working. If you're a whining, cheating, fighting pro player, be scared, be very very scared, because we're coming for your sponsorship dollars.



- Chris
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,116
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
I think what TJ is hammering at...

Originally posted by raehl
But we made the decision years ago that that was the only way we could make the most of ourselves in the long term, and it's working. If you're a whining, cheating, fighting pro player, be scared, be very very scared, because we're coming for your sponsorship dollars.
- Chris
Chris, not all pros are whining, cheating and fighting and I doubt the ones that are, are quaking in their boots regarding your last sentence declaration.
The pros are the best, make no mistake about that and talent sells, if you ain't got it, no matter how fair you play, it ain't no substitute in the real world.
As I see it, the best players will rise and continue at the top, ultimately representing our sport when TV finally comes, warts and all.
Eventually there will be a pressure to clean things up but I'm afraid the harsh realities of life determine that 'nice guys don't always win'.
Robbo
 

Furby

Naughty Paintball God
Mar 28, 2002
432
26
28
54
Norman Park, Georgia
www.thefordreport.com
Pity I didn't get a chance to sit down and talk with you Raehl....Bryan and I shot quite a few pictures of the collegiate X-ball competition, and I was hoping to get in touch with you and talk a bit. Next year.

Unfortunately I didn't make it to the Pro X-Ball competition because I had an early flight sunday. Hopefully I'll get to see one of those next year too!
 

Furby

Naughty Paintball God
Mar 28, 2002
432
26
28
54
Norman Park, Georgia
www.thefordreport.com
Re: I think what TJ is hammering at...

Originally posted by Robbo


Chris, not all pros are whining, cheating and fighting and I doubt the ones that are, are quaking in their boots regarding your last sentence declaration.
The pros are the best, make no mistake about that and talent sells, if you ain't got it, no matter how fair you play, it ain't no substitute in the real world.
As I see it, the best players will rise and continue at the top, ultimately representing our sport when TV finally comes, warts and all.
Eventually there will be a pressure to clean things up but I'm afraid the harsh realities of life determine that 'nice guys don't always win'.
Robbo
Pride goeth before the fall my friend...confidence is a good thing, and the NPPL Pros are the best in the world, no doubt about it...just watch yer back. The NCPA people have a good thing going and they're only going to get better...
 
R

raehl

Guest
Re: I think what TJ is hammering at...

Originally posted by Robbo


Chris, not all pros are whining, cheating and fighting and I doubt the ones that are, are quaking in their boots regarding your last sentence declaration.
The pros are the best, make no mistake about that and talent sells, if you ain't got it, no matter how fair you play, it ain't no substitute in the real world.
As I see it, the best players will rise and continue at the top, ultimately representing our sport when TV finally comes, warts and all.
Eventually there will be a pressure to clean things up but I'm afraid the harsh realities of life determine that 'nice guys don't always win'.
Robbo
I didn't mean to imply that all, or even most, pro players are whining, fighting, cheating *******s. (Although I will imply that most pro players cheat by college standards. Pros play well into the grey area, college people get upset if you even look like you're thinking about it.)

But you're wrong on the "best" issue. People watch college football. People watch high school football. The major news media devote a good deal of reporting on the little league world series every year - even though I'm sure the Yankees would make mincemeat out of the best that 12 year olds have to offer. They watch it and report on it because they like the teams, the players, a more basic/pure form of the game, and not having to shell out $50 for a ticket.

In sports, skill is not even close to the only factor. Cream of the crop doesn't matter, and most people can't tell the difference between a good paintball player and a bad one anyway. Advertisers can definitely tell the difference between a paintball player who is going to cause a mom to not want to buy the sponsor's product and one who isn't.


Big, long-term picture vs. small, short-term picture.

We're coming for your sponsorship dollars. Maybe not the ones you have now, but definitely the ones you're not getting. The sooner you guys figure out that being "the best", especially at the cost of playing on, wiping, shooting from the woods (sorry, hadda do it), and tolerating assaults on other players and referees, is not going to get you what you want (big dollars from coke, pepsi, mcdonalds, whatever), the sooner you'll have a shot at being a real athlete, in a real stadium, in front of a real audience, on a time slot that doesn't start with a number less than 7 appended with "AM".

Actually, coming for your sponsorship dollars IS a bit of a fallacy, but not for the reasons you suggest. A viable pro league makes it much easier to have a viable college league, and vice versa. It's not Pro or College, it's Pro AND College or nothing (or definitely not as much as with both).

Paintball needs us. Even if it pisses off some that some insolent 24 year old tart who's never actually set foot on a NPPL field during a game, backed by a buncha kiddies who their team would wipe around the field, can still offer a marketable product that can match or even exceed the value of theirs.


Furby, drop me an email, we can set up a phone call sometime. I'd also love permission to use some of those photos. ;)


- Chris