WORLD CUP news! Avalanche caught cheating!

[TJ Lambini]

>>>They do that by getting publicity. They do that by getting their teams seen. They do that by having their teams win. At any cost, as long as they win.<<<

Yes, but you wrote the above, which contradicts the long-termist approach.

The way you presented your argument was that long termism - in terms of needing to cleanup the sport to bring in real money - was unimportant to sponsors for the reason highlighted above. I was pointing out that, while cleaning up the sport may or may not be necessary, your explanation for sponsors' actions was very flawed.

And I think that the necessity of cleaning up and accountability is where Tyger and Furby are coming from, at least partially. And it's an interesting viewpoint which holds a lot of weight IMHO.

 

[Baca Loco]

When observing pro sports

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
And I think that the necessity of cleaning up and accountability is where Tyger and Furby are coming from, at least partially. And it's an interesting viewpoint which holds a lot of weight IMHO.

The signal difference between professional wrestling and "real" sports is (most) everyone knows wrestling match outcomes are fixed and the whole show is intended to be entertainment. A sporting event is also entertainment--hopefully--but one of the principle reasons its entertaining is because the fans are witness to uncluttered competition and a struggle to win the game with the outcome in doubt until the very end. It isn't sport unless there is an equality of opportunity. That doesn't mean players can't bend or break the rules but it does mean that the rules will be impartially upheld to the best of an independent refereeing staff's abilities and that no outside interference either before during or after the match will influence the result.
The Salm incident of itself is not a huge deal but what it demonstrates about the present state of pball if it wants to become a sport is significant and those larger issues must be addressed if pball doesn't want to be relegated to quasi-sport entertainment only.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
The way you presented your argument was that long termism - in terms of needing to cleanup the sport to bring in real money - was unimportant to sponsors for the reason highlighted above

bollocks did I. We weren't talking about the long term approash. We were talking wether or not it would bother sponsors and people looking in from the outside, which subsequently would bother the sponsors...

If we are talking about long termism then other issues become important. And you are now giving a definition of long termism which we weren't discussing before. Might not be the same as other's views of long termism.

But ultimately in any view, long or short, the sponsors are what are important. And what do they want to do? Make money. How is that flawed?

Maybe to make money in the future they will need to enforce accountability and clean the game up. More power to them, but that will come from their desire to make money, and will only be important to them if not having accountability and having a lot of cheat stops them making money.

Ultimately at the moment I bet (and know) a lot of sponsors turn a blind eye to cheating if it helps them make money.

manike

 

[TJ Lambini]

Exactly

Problem is the issues are clouded by the various personalities, camps and interests which are fighting each corner, even though in many cases they want the same thing. And then morality comes into play, and we get the whole rec has the moral high ground/all Pros cheat rubbish. And equally we get Pros giving attitude and damaging their own case and the point gets lost...cos the point ain't 'did Salm act alone' and we shouldn't get sidetracked into that.

 

[manike]

Exactly

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Problem is the issues are clouded by the various personalities, camps and interests which are fighting each corner, even though in many cases they want the same thing. And then morality comes into play, and we get the whole rec has the moral high ground/all Pros cheat rubbish. And equally we get Pros giving attitude and damaging their own case and the point gets lost...cos the point ain't 'did Salm act alone' and we shouldn't get sidetracked into that.

Agreed 100%

 

[TJ Lambini]

For the final time!

>>>Sponsors want to make money. They do that by getting publicity. They do that by getting their teams seen. They do that by having their teams win. At any cost, as long as they win.<<<

Is flawed because their teams winning at any costs can cause them to lose money in then long term be preventing the sport's growth, as explained.

And the post you replied to of mine WAS talking about long-termism - that's what the introduced clean-up thing is all about, what - if anything - we need to do to make pball bigger and attract more money into it.

 

[manike]

For the final time!

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Is flawed because their teams winning at any costs can cause them to lose money in then long term be preventing the sport's growth, as explained.

Got any proof or evidence of this?

Most of the greatest teams have also been attached to rumours of being the biggest cheats. Go's for the UK and the USA's teams.

Having spoken to some of the sports biggest sponsors, want to know how much they care? Jack squat, as long as they are making money. They haven't seen a loss because of teams they sponsor cheating. Oh and I've spoken to quite a few of them about this.

When or if they do, maybe then something will be done about it.

Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see it all get cleaned up, but if you think it's the most important thing I disagree. Making paintball profitable is what will make the sport grow, making that happen for the big sponsors is the most important thing. That's what will make paintball bigger. Not cleaning it up. But cleaning it up may help to make it profitable. Chicken or egg?

manike

 

[manike]

one Point of interest, WDP was one of the most concerned companies when it came to having sponsored teams cheating. Maybe that's why they are also trying to get it cleaned up via Pro?

manike

 

[TJ Lambini]

>>>Got any proof or evidence of this?<<

No, because this is all about the hypothesis that for the sport to really grow it has to be cleaned up. If it isn't they won't make 'real' money. It is only a hypothesis, but as I said I believe that's the root for Tyger and urby's argument, and I think they have a point.

>>>Making paintball profitable is what will make the sport grow, making that happen for the big sponsors is the most important thing. That's what will make paintball bigger. Not cleaning it up. But cleaning it up may help to make it profitable. <<<

Exactly, and the root of the argument is that ONLY by cleaning it up can you bring serious $$$$ into Paintball. And that is the question that needs addressing I think...how we sort governing bodies, refs, rules, checks and measures so we have a sport that can attract big bucks, which is what the industry wants.

So now you can see how the 'win at all costs' ethos could be counter-productive financially to sponsors? So we can forget about that bit of logical pedantry on my part...

 

[TJ Lambini]

>>>one Point of interest, WDP was one of the most concerned companies when it came to having sponsored teams cheating. Maybe that's why they are also trying to get it cleaned up via Pro?<<<

Exactly. And the exact same motivation is what lay behind doing Hyperball in the first place. Because they have a clear vision which is that they will only make big money when the sport is clean enough and professional enough to be viable to the real world...So WDP is on Tyger and Furby's side! And so are most of us, but it's getting clouded by the whole rec/tourney/Salm thang...