UK Paintball
- Thread starter Robbo
- Start date
Very true mate but until they all stop its always going to be a struggle. I know this is a topic we have discussed many times but I think it is now so deep-rooted into our sport that it will take some Hurculean effort to change the way the business and the players approach paintball.
I am beginning to sense a ground-swell of change coming for everyone and it will be a very interesting 12 months ahead!
I have just remembered where I put the lid Pete, its tied to the cat that I put in amongst the pigeons!
I am beginning to sense a ground-swell of change coming for everyone and it will be a very interesting 12 months ahead!
I have just remembered where I put the lid Pete, its tied to the cat that I put in amongst the pigeons!
Your right, I know I have yet to sell direct to the player (other than millennium events) but anyone who wants to guess how much paint I sold at any event that was not conected to one of my customers is more than welcome to guess away!
I was going to post this conversation I had with a player before an event, but i thought better of it, but you know what here you go:
Player "Andy we need paint for the event"
Andy "Ok it is £30 a case or £40 a case depending on the grade"
Player " I only want to buy the paint I don’t want shares in your company!!!"
Andy "why how much do you want to pay?"
Player "I want the best you have and the most I will pay is £18 +VAT a case!"
Andy "I have customers who buy a lot more than what you need that don’t pay that!"
Player "more fall them then, because we will win the event and pay you cash!"
Andy "Oh well good luck with that"
He did not buy paint from me as you can guess, but he did come up to me at the event, and said he got paint for £18 a case roughly and they had nothing but trouble with it and how they wish they had bought better paint etc etc...........
Makes me chuckle anyway!
I was going to post this conversation I had with a player before an event, but i thought better of it, but you know what here you go:
Player "Andy we need paint for the event"
Andy "Ok it is £30 a case or £40 a case depending on the grade"
Player " I only want to buy the paint I don’t want shares in your company!!!"
Andy "why how much do you want to pay?"
Player "I want the best you have and the most I will pay is £18 +VAT a case!"
Andy "I have customers who buy a lot more than what you need that don’t pay that!"
Player "more fall them then, because we will win the event and pay you cash!"
Andy "Oh well good luck with that"
He did not buy paint from me as you can guess, but he did come up to me at the event, and said he got paint for £18 a case roughly and they had nothing but trouble with it and how they wish they had bought better paint etc etc...........
Makes me chuckle anyway!
And right there is one of the root causes of the problem. Teams and players getting paint at pricing equivilent to a site price - and for what profit to the wholesaler??? He sold maybe 20 boxes and made nothing on it.
It makes no business sense at all and just makes for smaller and smaller margins for paint manufacturers.
Does no-one else see where this is headed?
It makes no business sense at all and just makes for smaller and smaller margins for paint manufacturers.
Does no-one else see where this is headed?
D
duffistuta
Guest
Over the last couple of days I have had more than my fair share of people calling me up regarding this thread.
Most of the guys I have talked to have differing angles but their opinions I respect.
Russell Smith, Chuck from Jags, Piper, Niall, Scutty and a few more have all been in touch to put across what they believe to be the problem.
The situation we find ourselves in has no single solution, it needs a raft of changes and all have to be done if we are to positively change what’s going on now.
The two areas that are screaming out for change are the economics of our sport at site and wholesaler levels and also the knock on effects running through to team / player quality.
I had a 30 minute talk with Chuck from the Jags and he’s in a pretty good position to assess team / player status and to give me an opinion on the way he runs his site and the economics thereof.
As the discussion progressed it became increasingly obvious to us both that an palatable truth was taking form and it was one I have resisted talking about for a few months now.
Chuck and I were commenting on what we had seen (and he has seen a lot more than I of the average tourney baller in the UK) and we both agreed the level wasn’t so much bad, as dire. In fact Russell Smith made much the same observation as both Chuck and I.
Now what the hell’s going on here where our tourney circuit over here is provoking comments like this from the likes of me, Chuck and Russell.
Either we are wrong or we are right.
I have I suppose been to about four or five domestic tournaments this year and I have gotta say, there is nothing I have seen to make me change my opinion, we are frikkin dire.
But it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever just commenting on it without asking the question ‘why’.
In NO way do I wanna piss people off, I in NO way want to insult or disrespect anybody but we are what we are and Brit Paintball is generally played at such a low level it beggars belief as to how we got to this stage.
I am sure there will be some howls of derision coming my way but I’m afraid ‘black is black’ and ‘white is white’, we are what we are and no amount of defensive posturing is gonna tell me any different or change what is out there.
But why?????
Psycho mentioned in an earlier post that he believed 95% of UK ballers are bone idle, Duffitusta seconded that opinion……
As I mentioned in that first post, our tourney circuit is made up of players who would under normal circumstances play rec ball (but obviously can’t) and are forced to play in tourneys as the only place they can strut their stuff if they don’t wanna keep playing rental.
We also have included in our tourney circuit some real competitive ballers but these are in no way the majority as it should be, far from it in fact.
Other countries have a tourney circuit that is predominantly made up of competitive ballers who aspire to that competitive arena, we have a mix of those and casual players who should be playing rec.
I hope you see where this is taking us…..
For the most part, our tourney players don’t really have a competitive ethos, sure they wanna win a game when they play, who doesn’t, but this is something vastly different from having a competitive ethos.
If you are a sportsman (a competitive paintballer) then you wanna compete and part of that means striving for improvement.
And to acquire that improvement, athletes have to train and to learn.
For the most part, the vast majority of our teams don’t wanna do either, we are a joke, we pay lip service to a competitive ethos and if that then means we actually have to do something, then that lip service adherence to a sporting ethos quickly evaporates in preference to a burger and beer sat in front of the TV.
We don’t look like US tourney teams because we ain’t like US teams and that is the bottom line here, we don’t look like a duck, we don’t quack like a duck…….and that’s because….
We suck because we deserve to suck, we don’t train, we don’t wanna learn and yet to look at the boards you would think there are hundreds of ballers out there champing at the bit to jump on the bandwagon of improvement, well let me tell ya, that’s all bullsh!t coz most of them would rather go and play some stoopid 5 man in the back of nowhere and go thru the motions of being a competitive baller rather than working at being a real sportsman.
But should we criticize them?
How the hell can we because they pays their money, they makes their choice and let’s face it, they enjoy it that way but as a consequence of that we are left with the realization that UK ball cannot produce top grade ballers as things stand.
To rebuild Nexus I have had to go outside the UK to recruit.
Most of you guys know me and you know how proud I am to be English and nothing would have given me greater pleasure than to go to the NPPL with an all Brit squad but it proved impossible. I have now got two foreigners on board and another I am awaiting an answer from, believe me, I didn’t wanna go down that road but I had to.
Players over here just don’t seem motivated enough, are too damned lazy, think the paintball world owes them a living and so and so on.
Chuck advocated a spit roast approach to trying to sort our problems in terms of producing better teams and players in that we provide an infrastructure for training at one end and encourage the conversion of rentals to rec at the other, as our conversation progressed, it became obvious to us both that unless we have the right people to work with then it was hopeless and looking around at what we got now, I just cannot see things getting any better.
Of course there are some people who are motivated, some who are talented, some who would commit and so on…but nowhere near enough, nowhere near.
And the tragedy is, these people who are talented and committed enough are generally wallowing in a team where its other members are the ones I am now referring to who have no motivation or commitment to improve.
Russell Smith suggested an academy of some sort and I don’t mind helping out in some way and I am sure others like Nicky T would also jump in to help but I just wonder if we could generate the numbers to make it worth it.
Going on what happened to Markie C when he got XSV over, I don’t hold out much hope.
I am really proud to be English, I am also proud of what my guys achieved in the US and across Europe, I just wish a lot more of us over here were as proud and committed.
Most of the guys I have talked to have differing angles but their opinions I respect.
Russell Smith, Chuck from Jags, Piper, Niall, Scutty and a few more have all been in touch to put across what they believe to be the problem.
The situation we find ourselves in has no single solution, it needs a raft of changes and all have to be done if we are to positively change what’s going on now.
The two areas that are screaming out for change are the economics of our sport at site and wholesaler levels and also the knock on effects running through to team / player quality.
I had a 30 minute talk with Chuck from the Jags and he’s in a pretty good position to assess team / player status and to give me an opinion on the way he runs his site and the economics thereof.
As the discussion progressed it became increasingly obvious to us both that an palatable truth was taking form and it was one I have resisted talking about for a few months now.
Chuck and I were commenting on what we had seen (and he has seen a lot more than I of the average tourney baller in the UK) and we both agreed the level wasn’t so much bad, as dire. In fact Russell Smith made much the same observation as both Chuck and I.
Now what the hell’s going on here where our tourney circuit over here is provoking comments like this from the likes of me, Chuck and Russell.
Either we are wrong or we are right.
I have I suppose been to about four or five domestic tournaments this year and I have gotta say, there is nothing I have seen to make me change my opinion, we are frikkin dire.
But it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever just commenting on it without asking the question ‘why’.
In NO way do I wanna piss people off, I in NO way want to insult or disrespect anybody but we are what we are and Brit Paintball is generally played at such a low level it beggars belief as to how we got to this stage.
I am sure there will be some howls of derision coming my way but I’m afraid ‘black is black’ and ‘white is white’, we are what we are and no amount of defensive posturing is gonna tell me any different or change what is out there.
But why?????
Psycho mentioned in an earlier post that he believed 95% of UK ballers are bone idle, Duffitusta seconded that opinion……
As I mentioned in that first post, our tourney circuit is made up of players who would under normal circumstances play rec ball (but obviously can’t) and are forced to play in tourneys as the only place they can strut their stuff if they don’t wanna keep playing rental.
We also have included in our tourney circuit some real competitive ballers but these are in no way the majority as it should be, far from it in fact.
Other countries have a tourney circuit that is predominantly made up of competitive ballers who aspire to that competitive arena, we have a mix of those and casual players who should be playing rec.
I hope you see where this is taking us…..
For the most part, our tourney players don’t really have a competitive ethos, sure they wanna win a game when they play, who doesn’t, but this is something vastly different from having a competitive ethos.
If you are a sportsman (a competitive paintballer) then you wanna compete and part of that means striving for improvement.
And to acquire that improvement, athletes have to train and to learn.
For the most part, the vast majority of our teams don’t wanna do either, we are a joke, we pay lip service to a competitive ethos and if that then means we actually have to do something, then that lip service adherence to a sporting ethos quickly evaporates in preference to a burger and beer sat in front of the TV.
We don’t look like US tourney teams because we ain’t like US teams and that is the bottom line here, we don’t look like a duck, we don’t quack like a duck…….and that’s because….
We suck because we deserve to suck, we don’t train, we don’t wanna learn and yet to look at the boards you would think there are hundreds of ballers out there champing at the bit to jump on the bandwagon of improvement, well let me tell ya, that’s all bullsh!t coz most of them would rather go and play some stoopid 5 man in the back of nowhere and go thru the motions of being a competitive baller rather than working at being a real sportsman.
But should we criticize them?
How the hell can we because they pays their money, they makes their choice and let’s face it, they enjoy it that way but as a consequence of that we are left with the realization that UK ball cannot produce top grade ballers as things stand.
To rebuild Nexus I have had to go outside the UK to recruit.
Most of you guys know me and you know how proud I am to be English and nothing would have given me greater pleasure than to go to the NPPL with an all Brit squad but it proved impossible. I have now got two foreigners on board and another I am awaiting an answer from, believe me, I didn’t wanna go down that road but I had to.
Players over here just don’t seem motivated enough, are too damned lazy, think the paintball world owes them a living and so and so on.
Chuck advocated a spit roast approach to trying to sort our problems in terms of producing better teams and players in that we provide an infrastructure for training at one end and encourage the conversion of rentals to rec at the other, as our conversation progressed, it became obvious to us both that unless we have the right people to work with then it was hopeless and looking around at what we got now, I just cannot see things getting any better.
Of course there are some people who are motivated, some who are talented, some who would commit and so on…but nowhere near enough, nowhere near.
And the tragedy is, these people who are talented and committed enough are generally wallowing in a team where its other members are the ones I am now referring to who have no motivation or commitment to improve.
Russell Smith suggested an academy of some sort and I don’t mind helping out in some way and I am sure others like Nicky T would also jump in to help but I just wonder if we could generate the numbers to make it worth it.
Going on what happened to Markie C when he got XSV over, I don’t hold out much hope.
I am really proud to be English, I am also proud of what my guys achieved in the US and across Europe, I just wish a lot more of us over here were as proud and committed.
Ben Frain - great post mate. Agree 100% Crap +1 typifies almost all my tourney experince over the last 5 years or so...
My 2p on UK ball:
In regards to the Manufactuer - end user supply chain, yes the 'Ballin supply chain is heavily corrupted. Mostly it lies with the manufactuer - this is a top top-down driven industry. but is's not all the fault of the manufactuer - they have high set up costs, But, as I see it, the industry a product of it's roots - a few innovators driving a market with little formal experiance in how to do so.
Basically what you have now are a few wrecking balls widly swinging about making sure that no one touches thier dollar.
the lack of stablised pricing, with the need to cut yer own throat to make it to next month means that a distributor is always going to find it tough - certainly alot tougher than in a traditional retail (rather than servce) enviroment.
The upshot: re-sellers aint gonna touch you for any decent commitment to stock holding, which means you have no retail face to the public. The result means that you loose impulsive sales, or joe public goes to the tinternet and buys it off the manufactuer. Catch 22.
Del boy is still around - I worked for one of the best, and had a good chance to see how PB in the UK really worked at a punter level. Mostly it's opportunists - I would say there are very few sites that have any kind of formal/ academic training on how to operate in a service enviroment. So how on earth can you expect a truley proffesional service to build the foundation of a sport upon?. (dont get me wrong, there are many many quality sites out there, but it's the cowboyz that are doing the damage).
How to make it better? If it was me in distribution, I'd make all sales performance related. Dangle a Rebate carrot of extra % for an increase in sales - passing it onto the sites to drag in (and convert?) more people. Of course they try now, but how much more of an effort would you go for example: 2% of a million balls? That's how you drive growth.... and with growth (and service support)- should come your conversion into tourney players.
Phew.
P.
My 2p on UK ball:
In regards to the Manufactuer - end user supply chain, yes the 'Ballin supply chain is heavily corrupted. Mostly it lies with the manufactuer - this is a top top-down driven industry. but is's not all the fault of the manufactuer - they have high set up costs, But, as I see it, the industry a product of it's roots - a few innovators driving a market with little formal experiance in how to do so.
Basically what you have now are a few wrecking balls widly swinging about making sure that no one touches thier dollar.
the lack of stablised pricing, with the need to cut yer own throat to make it to next month means that a distributor is always going to find it tough - certainly alot tougher than in a traditional retail (rather than servce) enviroment.
The upshot: re-sellers aint gonna touch you for any decent commitment to stock holding, which means you have no retail face to the public. The result means that you loose impulsive sales, or joe public goes to the tinternet and buys it off the manufactuer. Catch 22.
Del boy is still around - I worked for one of the best, and had a good chance to see how PB in the UK really worked at a punter level. Mostly it's opportunists - I would say there are very few sites that have any kind of formal/ academic training on how to operate in a service enviroment. So how on earth can you expect a truley proffesional service to build the foundation of a sport upon?. (dont get me wrong, there are many many quality sites out there, but it's the cowboyz that are doing the damage).
How to make it better? If it was me in distribution, I'd make all sales performance related. Dangle a Rebate carrot of extra % for an increase in sales - passing it onto the sites to drag in (and convert?) more people. Of course they try now, but how much more of an effort would you go for example: 2% of a million balls? That's how you drive growth.... and with growth (and service support)- should come your conversion into tourney players.
Phew.
P.
someone said that ballers can't make the decision between paintball as a hobby and as a sport. This is a massive factor in the talent pool, because a lot of teams don't train, they turn up and play on the day of a tourney.
Which again boils down to no middle area where hobbyists can play ball without training so the proper tourney players can work hard to increase their presence in the sport side of paintball and then we have the three levels of novice/punter, amateur/walkon/recball and pro/tourney.
And by pro I don't necessarily mean sponsored or paid to play because that doesn't really happen in a massive way over here (another reason teams don't put in enough effort methinks).
After the winners of the Masters this year received a very nice Dye sponsorship, quite a few teams (including ours) turned round and thought, i want some of that, we need to improve fast and we are now hell bent on training and improving our game.
Which again boils down to no middle area where hobbyists can play ball without training so the proper tourney players can work hard to increase their presence in the sport side of paintball and then we have the three levels of novice/punter, amateur/walkon/recball and pro/tourney.
And by pro I don't necessarily mean sponsored or paid to play because that doesn't really happen in a massive way over here (another reason teams don't put in enough effort methinks).
After the winners of the Masters this year received a very nice Dye sponsorship, quite a few teams (including ours) turned round and thought, i want some of that, we need to improve fast and we are now hell bent on training and improving our game.
Probably me that said it, and, it is, and always has been, a major contribution to the state of britball. People pay lip service to the term "sport", then go off, play a tourney, go to work or whatever and think nothing of it 'till the next tourney.
I'm guilty of it, so are many others who wont admit to it.
I'm guilty of it, so are many others who wont admit to it.