UK Disgrace

[Cusack]

I think Syd that there's no Events on in August, or may be the PA league is on this month.

there's also both masters consecutively afterwards


Robbo, your point implies that there are more people in tourney ball, than other countries, but with a higher percentage of them being 'displaced rec-ballers' ?

Why would the rec-ballers end up playing competition and all the proper prospective ballers not?

The proper ballers can't find our side of the sport, and end up staying on the rental side, but why do we need walk ons for anything other than keeping the 'walkons' out of tournemants- just give the tournemant package straight to them. (as pestilence said)


for example: last year i took my mates to the campaign cup, and i saw very few people who weren't paintballers (there were some), possibly because the weather was bad, but it puzzled me cause there were adverts everywhere for it - all over birmingham and even on the radio, but there was nothing at the local site?? Isn't that a bit backwards?? It's like preaching to the unconvertible, and lignoring all the suckers that only need a little push??

The media and website was great though, i loved it, it was just slightly mis-guided?

 

[rayko]

...The PA, the UKM 5 & 7, the Dynasty Clinic and HG4 are all/were in August. I am sure there were/are a lot of other events as well (besides the usual walk-ons).

Errr... August started on Tuesday. I can't speak for the other series, but HG4 and D7s X-Ball Lite were definitely held in July. There is *currently* no NSPL leg or D7s X-Ball Lite in August.

Anyway back to the debate.

 

[Twizz ECI]

...The PA, the UKM 5 & 7, the Dynasty Clinic and HG4 are all/were in August. I am sure there were/are a lot of other events as well (besides the usual walk-ons).

Is the answer to give up playing local/internal tournies and concetrate soley on Mills or even go stateside?

Just to let you know HG4 and Dynasty clinic were on in July!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Robbo]

Robbo is right and wrong (No offence dude).........

.......My "robbo is wrong statement" (no i'm not mad) is that I believe the demographics are our own. We have always had a rec ball scene and I suspect that a lot of our tourney players cut their teeth on rec ball.
We need to encourage our players and teams, like the nice guy from Madrid said. We need to get the site owners to encourage tourney players so that we have some national pride in our sport.
Ok rant over......tell me wind my neck in if you wish.....but I still love this sport

Wrong !!!!
Wrong????
Never
And certainly no offence taken because everybody's entitled to make a mistake Furey ...... and of course you are also entitled to make a mistake in believing I am wrong and I will tell you why I think you are making one now.

We do have a recball scene yes but my point is, it's woefully short of what we need.
Let's go back to basics here, traditional belief has it that tournament players are the product of a trickle through beginning with rental game enthusiasts passing into recball and eventually onto the tournament scene.
This is the lineage of 95% of tourney players.

If you restrict the number of walk-on sites then what you effectively do is force the guys who want to come away from rental playing into the tournament scene.
This is because this demographic have a real yearning to play Paintball away from the rental environment and their only option (for a lot of them) is to play low level tournaments (no disrespect intended here).

Once this transition has taken place, the tourney demographic over here is then represented not by guys who are truly competitive but by a lot of guys who just wanna play Paintball.
It is extremely important to make sure you understand the distinction between guys who just wanna play and guys who are competitive because they are two entirely different animals because it is from the latter group we are looking to populate events such as the Campaign Cup and also provide us with a healthy domestic team base.

Our demographic is our own, as you say, but I'm afraid our demographic is distinctly different from most other European countries and this is exactly why we can now see those differences in that some of the other countries have a more healthy team base than us.

I hope this explains your problem in understanding the problem and thus believing I was wrong

 

[Robbo]

there's also both masters consecutively afterwards


Robbo, your point implies that there are more people in tourney ball, than other countries, but with a higher percentage of them being 'displaced rec-ballers' ?

Why would the rec-ballers end up playing competition and all the proper prospective ballers not?

The proper ballers can't find our side of the sport, and end up staying on the rental side, but why do we need walk ons for anything other than keeping the 'walkons' out of tournemants- just give the tournemant package straight to them. (as pestilence said)


for example: last year i took my mates to the campaign cup, and i saw very few people who weren't paintballers (there were some), possibly because the weather was bad, but it puzzled me cause there were adverts everywhere for it - all over birmingham and even on the radio, but there was nothing at the local site?? Isn't that a bit backwards?? It's like preaching to the unconvertible, and lignoring all the suckers that only need a little push??

The media and website was great though, i loved it, it was just slightly mis-guided?

Ok, you seem to be missing something here in that if there is no promotion of walk-ons i.e. that our average site owner does not promote this side of the game in the mistaken belief that he wants to keep all his customer base within the rental side of his business as against promoting and running a walk on option.
The consequence of this misguided bushiness strategy is that you do not generate the numbers of walk-ons or tourney ballers one would normally associate with other countries or indeed this one say 10 years ago when there were a lot more opportunities for ballers to progress away from the rental environment.

A healthy promotion strategy would have thousands of players being pushed onward (away from rental) and a percentage of these transitioning to tournament but since there is no concerted strategy to push anybody anywhere other than paying 6p a ball and playing rental then the 'onward' demographic is going to be restricted thus giving rise to a skewed ratio of people 'just wanting to play' and 'real' tourney ballers within our tourney demographic.
I hope this clear up your confusion.

 

[Bedlam]

Touche..........

My understanding of the situation is clearer now. We are saying that we need the distinction between amateurs and pro's (Please, no offense meant to anyone......before you slap me ). And you are right, we do, just like any other sport. Saturday/sunday club footballers do not love their sport any less then the David beckhams of this world, but the contrast is massive. (Jumpers for Goal posts and all that)

The analogy may be a little bizarre but I believe that is where we need to change attitudes. The jump from amateur (rec ballin/low level tourney) to pro (training 3/4 times a week and tourney every weekend or there abouts) is more than just one of money. I don't care who you are, money DOES play a part but it's certainly not the whole story. Attitude is also part of it and so is commitment.

Lets keep the two separate so that we put pressure on the pro teams to make the effort and encourage the amateurs to make the changes IF they want to go further.

(Pro and Amateur are simply two words I chose to distinguish between the two camps.......so don't think I am dissing the great unclean... I am one of those greater unwashed )

Robbo.....consider this the humble pie eaten and enjoyed with a small portion of know your place custard......

 

[Raffles]

OK - so I need a new calendar (doh!) - but these events were so near to the end of July that they were nearly in August (phew!).

The actual date doesn't really matter - but, if they were held after CC - would they have still been so well attended by the CC players?

I suppose the moans would change to "I'm skint after CC - so can't make it".

My question still stands though - is it time to give up local tournaments and concentrate soley on European leagues?

I'd love to see my team compete in the Mills - but it would have to be at the expense of the UKM or any other tournament.

Unless the Mills can offer each of my team members a days play for £100 each all in (that includes paint, travel, accom etc) then I'm afraid it's never going to happen.

I think it's time we just faced facts - the UK paintball scene is crap! Even for the players that do want to progress - the facilities, incentives and rewards just aren't there (apart from the very few that do 'make it') like they are in other sports - mainly because paintball isn't a sport!

The only answer is for someone to pour a load of money in tournament paintball and expect no real return. Now who's going to do that?

 

[Cusack]

What i'm saying is why not give them OUR side first. forget the walkon 'percolation' and instead have relaxed supair days at the local site. I played one walkon before going to a supair sunday at npf and getting into this side. As soon as I had more than 2 games in one day of the sup-air format i was hooked. I felt the walkon was just an avenue from which I could have gone down from rental, and I couldn't really see much turnings for 'tournemant'

Ok, so say we somehow improve walkons, we get less of these 'play for fun' types coming through, which is good - but how is it as efficient at converting the serious ones over to our side, it's just another barrier that they have to break through, why can't you give it to them directly in the supair sunday relaxed day fashion?

 

[Mark Toye-Nexus]

I think if you look at what Robbo is saying is that with a healthy paintball industry serving the cientelle correctly then we should have;

Rental players - paying the rental charges and only playing a few times a year.

Walk-on players - playing with their own kit but in local rental style scenarios/games paying less but more regularly

Low end tournament players - playing with higher end kit, locally and dipping their toes in the tourney scene

High end (Pro and Div 1/2) tournament players - playing with high end kit, country wide and internationally that train regularly and have a competitive attitude.

I agree that the current attitude of most site owners is to feircely protect their customer protfolio from the possibilities of moving away from pure rental. Most 'punters' (bad term but we all understand) have absolutely no idea about the big wide world of paintball possibilities. The stream of potential is strangulated at the base of the triangle where the numbers are.

Unfortunately thinking out of the box doesnt come easily, many will not see the possibilities. Mind you, in defence of the site owner - the keenest players are their organisers, those that bring in the 30, 40, 50 mates. Convert them to playing walk-ons and they drop their 3 times a year mates, and the site owner really does suffer.

If i was a site owner I think I would think twice too.

 

[Mark Toye-Nexus]

Beg to difer. Playing Madrid costed us slightly over 200 euros per player (150 pounds?), we guesstimate CC in around 550, a little bit more than Paris (500 / 350 pounds). This is including entry fees, hotels, paint, car rental and flights. ID cards and food are on each player's pocket

We are a Div3 team, Madrid based.

Jorge

If accom, transport, food is included I would say that £350 for a home event is a fair assessement. Add £100 for a foreign one.

Obviously a home event with no accom is a whole lot cheaper!!