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UK Disgrace

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,116
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
Cusack said:
What i'm saying is why not give them OUR side first. forget the walkon 'percolation' and instead have relaxed supair days at the local site. I played one walkon before going to a supair sunday at npf and getting into this side. As soon as I had more than 2 games in one day of the sup-air format i was hooked. I felt the walkon was just an avenue from which I could have gone down from rental, and I couldn't really see much turnings for 'tournemant'

Ok, so say we somehow improve walkons, we get less of these 'play for fun' types coming through, which is good - but how is it as efficient at converting the serious ones over to our side, it's just another barrier that they have to break through, why can't you give it to them directly in the supair sunday relaxed day fashion?
Cusack, with no disrespect mate, you seem to be misunderstanding some fundamental points I am raising, firstly the walk-ons are for the most part the same as the 'play for fun' type.
Most guys who would wanna play 'walk on' will be the 'play for fun' types and it is these guys who go to make up a disproportionate part of our tourney demographic purely because there are just not enough walk on facilities available.
Being a walk on isn't so much a barrier but instead should be viewed as a transitional stage.

And you really do seem to be misunderstanding this next point because you suggest our sites run Sup Air days and then go on to educate these guys as to tournaments; site owners aren't gonna go anywhere near having Sup'Air day let alone educating anybody as to the virtues of tourney ball.
It's all well and good making these suggestions mate but they have to be practical and at least plausible and with the site owner mentality we have in the UK, I'm afraid your proposals are nonsensical, no offence mate but that's the way it is over here.
 

Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
Right, as promised, here goes...

The problem Pete describes is very similar to Holland, albeit that here it happens on a smaller scale, since we are after all a smaller country.

To the vast majority of the people paintball is something you do as a stagdo, or with your collegues or whatever. Basically just for ****s and giggles.

Years and years ago, one site owner (one of the first in Holland) had the brains to start selling paintball equipment, besides running his site. He sold paint and guns to some other people who run sites too. But he also started selling high end markers (I'm talking about the days when a VM68 was considered cool....). Figuring it makes no sense to be selling that type of marker when there is no customer base for them, he opened up his own site on sundays to all the people that had their own stuff. You only paid a small fee, bought a box of paint and started blasting fools.

Things have progressed dramatically since then.

In Holland we have plenty of run of the mill sites, where people come, pay money to pretend to be Chuck Norris for a day and go home again. These people, mostly, had a good day, but are none the wiser about paintball's other sides. Sure, some of these sites get return customers, but when somebody comes to play more than twice a year, it's a lot...

However, the guy that first opened up his site to people with their own gear (the same guy who brought your the DMA's by the way), and a very few other site owners, have stepped things up a notch. He now runs a huge site, with a good number of fields, all with their own theme. Besides these themed fields, he also has official tournament Sup'Air fields.
People can become members of the local paintballclub, and pretty much practice when they want. They also get massive discounts on paint and such. This all takes place alongside the rental customers, who get to see the other side of paintball. There is interaction between the rental customers and the walk-ons/team players, thereby promoting the other side of the game. This leads to more and more people getting interested in the game, which in turn leads to more people joing the club, which leads to more people playing the game, which leads to more people buying the gear, which leads to happy people playing paintball, which leads to a happy site/shop owner.

Sure, it requires an investment, both in time and money, but in the end you get people that play the game a lot more often, who may not spend as much money per head per paintball session as the rentals do, but over a year they spend a ****load more. Besides that, they don't interfere with the ability to take the revenue from the rentals either (although this is largely down to the fact that the site is big enough to accomodate them both, not every site owner may be so lucky).

The above example also makes it painfully obvious what Pete means by people that just want to play paintball.
The regulars that visit the site can be split into two different groups: The tourney ballers, and the woodsballers. Guess which group is the largest...
There is a large group of people out there that play paintball, but prefer to crawl around trees rather than big inflatable cushions. These people will play competitions if they don't have any other options, but given half a chance will disappear into the woods and get face down in the dirt.
Sure, these guys don't take the competition thing very serious, but they do spend serious money on their equipment. They shoot Angels too if their wallets allow it. If these guys do not get the chance to play their own game and get lumped in with the tourney ballers, this will give a wrong picture of the tourney scene. Also it will lead to a higher rate of people dropping out of the game, because they are not playing the way they really want to.



A totally different problem that I see, is the way the whole team thing is approached. Basically, any group of people can just sit down and say "right, now we are a paintball team!". Just add a name and hey presto!
If you are however serious about playing paintball in a competitive environment, you need much more than 5-7 people (depending on the format that you intend to play).
You need commitment. You need extra players.
Sure, everybody will say they're comitted to the team, but won't show up for every practice. There may be good reasons to do so, but that's irrelevant.
In order to cope with this, at first there needs to be a clear hierarchy within the team. You need a coach/manager. Somebody that is not afraid to be impopular. If you intend to play M5, I'd say you need a roster of at least 10 people. That's twice the number of people that'll take the field...
That way, the manager can keep track of who shows up for training sessions, and the players that just don't put in the effort (for whatever reasobn, financial, personal or otherwise) get benched. Nowadays it's still a case of "well, we'll let him play, even though he hasn't really been to practice, but we need him to fill out the numbers". That just won't cut it.
If your team consists of less then ten names, consider a merger with a team in your area suffering from the same thing. You should have been one team to begin with, because your paintball demographic obviously isn't big enough to sustain two teams.
Unless you are willing to do things like this, you are not taking things seriously and you have rightfully not entered your team in the CC. You are just another rec player. Which is fine, but don't try to kid yourself and the rest of the world by maintaining you are a tournament team...

I can go on and on about this, but I'll save that for another time.
 

Just Curious

Active Member
Jul 6, 2001
543
1
43
www.jerseywarriors.co.uk
Jorge

If accom, transport, food is included I would say that £350 for a home event is a fair assessement. Add £100 for a foreign one.

Obviously a home event with no accom is a whole lot cheaper!!
Close.....Its costing us approx £400.00 without food, just accom & transport....but should be worth every penny.
 

Russell Smith

The Paintball Association
Syd (NSPL) said:
The NSPL has nothing in August at all - because I did agree to not run the league events in the run up to Campaign and I stuck with it. So that's not entirely true. But there are just too many tournaments. All us organisers agreed that when we sat around that same table and no one was willing to do anything about it. Now, we're seeing the consequences.
Syd,

I was not having a go at you mate, far from it, as you said we all! agreed that there was too many tournaments, and as you also said we are seeing the fall out now.

Russ
 

Sid_Clan

What's the point!!!
Sep 13, 2005
401
0
0
God's Country
www.a1paintball.org
Stop having a pop at site owners FFS, it pi$$e$ me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are not all the same, but we do all have to earn money, you know, mortgages to pay, bills, kids, paintball, beer!!!!!!!!

Clan are doing Campaign, although I have to be totally honest, reason I didn't do last year was £750 for 8 games is $hit....

This is a catch 22, players want to play the big tournaments, but at £105 per player before you get on a plane/car, then hotels for 3 nights, ID Cards(if they are still charging), paint, hire car, food and obviously drink your not getting alot of change out of £450-£500 for what, 2 days of paintball, 4 games a day....come on...please....as much as I enjoy Millennium Events, as much as I love this sport, 4 games in one day....it's just not value for money, yes, the location is amazing, watching other teams, meeting old friends blah blah blah.....but it all comes down to simple value for money. 5 Games in one day was an easier pill to swallow, so why change it?

Then, we have the flipside of the coin, people are more intersted in how they look, how well they beat up on lesser teams and how fast they can shoot their gat than they are in making the effort to get better and play on the big stage, I have been there twice with Escarmouche at Campaign in Crystal Palace and taken 2nd and 3rd two years running and there is no feeling in the world like it. Going on that field, in front of all those people, on the Sunday, in the finals, I would pay it over and over. But, you have to be there, make the sacrafices, put the effort in, in order to get that feeling...or, you can beat up on some kid with a Tippman98 down your local site....I'm not loaded, I have 5 kids, bills, a site to run, but I'm not a fat cat back of the van site owner, I work my backside off to play.

So, I both agree and disagree with Robbo, I agree that "Established" UK teams should be making the effort to support this event and not let some foreign mob take home the Campaign Cup. But I do not agree that the problem lies with site owners, I think the problem lies with teams and team managers in not pushing their players and teams to be the best.....simple as that!!!

Flame me, bad mouth me, do as you will.....but at the end of the day, I'll be at Campaign Cup in Div2(Not Sandbaggin even though I'm the only one to EVER play a Millennium Event), will you???

Sid
 

jotajotaZ

New Member
Feb 7, 2003
250
0
0
Spain
www.ninatoz.org
Just Curious said:
Close.....Its costing us approx £400.00 without food, just accom & transport....but should be worth every penny.
Wow.. unless I am talking in cost per person and you are talking in cost per team I don't get it :) I'm spending around 350 pounds to go to CC including flight, accomodation, paint (estimate, of course) and entry fee, and I am going from Spain (it should be a little more expensive than going from the UK...) :confused:
 

Korky

New Member
Jan 5, 2005
18
0
0
North Essex
Visit site
Walk ons

No knowing how to copy bits of others posts and Robbo's comment about site owners I have just read a thread on the Walk on Zone which advertises a walk on day.

All the site is charging is £35!!! This includes green fee, box of paint (Formula 13 or =) Air co2 lunch T&C and there has only been 10 serious take ups!!

This site owner wants to promote the game but WTF is happening here??

I stick to my earlier thread - reduce the cost, increase the number of games, form clubs not teams and then things will improve. That said we MUST encourage the younger generation to play otherwise we might as well pack it in now and leave it to other countries!!!


Korky
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,116
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
Sid_Clan said:
Stop having a pop at site owners FFS, it pi$$e$ me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are not all the same, but we do all have to earn money, you know, mortgages to pay, bills, kids, paintball, beer!!!!!!!!

Clan are doing Campaign, although I have to be totally honest, reason I didn't do last year was £750 for 8 games is $hit....

This is a catch 22, players want to play the big tournaments, but at £105 per player before you get on a plane/car, then hotels for 3 nights, ID Cards(if they are still charging), paint, hire car, food and obviously drink your not getting alot of change out of £450-£500 for what, 2 days of paintball, 4 games a day....come on...please....as much as I enjoy Millennium Events, as much as I love this sport, 4 games in one day....it's just not value for money, yes, the location is amazing, watching other teams, meeting old friends blah blah blah.....but it all comes down to simple value for money. 5 Games in one day was an easier pill to swallow, so why change it?

Then, we have the flipside of the coin, people are more intersted in how they look, how well they beat up on lesser teams and how fast they can shoot their gat than they are in making the effort to get better and play on the big stage, I have been there twice with Escarmouche at Campaign in Crystal Palace and taken 2nd and 3rd two years running and there is no feeling in the world like it. Going on that field, in front of all those people, on the Sunday, in the finals, I would pay it over and over. But, you have to be there, make the sacrafices, put the effort in, in order to get that feeling...or, you can beat up on some kid with a Tippman98 down your local site....I'm not loaded, I have 5 kids, bills, a site to run, but I'm not a fat cat back of the van site owner, I work my backside off to play.

So, I both agree and disagree with Robbo, I agree that "Established" UK teams should be making the effort to support this event and not let some foreign mob take home the Campaign Cup. But I do not agree that the problem lies with site owners, I think the problem lies with teams and team managers in not pushing their players and teams to be the best.....simple as that!!!

Flame me, bad mouth me, do as you will.....but at the end of the day, I'll be at Campaign Cup in Div2(Not Sandbaggin even though I'm the only one to EVER play a Millennium Event), will you???

Sid
Sid, if only our average site owner was like you, then we wouldn't be up shiit creek like we are now but I'm afraid they ain't mate and until the majority are as foresighted and imaginative as you are then I will continue to dig them out and expose them for what they are, a bunch of frikkin Del Boys ...well most are anyway, not all I agree.
 

Jon C

Do you play with balls?
Feb 1, 2005
755
8
53
43
Whore house
www.ontargetpaintball.co.uk
Sid_Clan said:
Stop having a pop at site owners FFS, it pi$$e$ me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are not all the same, but we do all have to earn money, you know, mortgages to pay, bills, kids, paintball, beer!!!!!!!!

Clan are doing Campaign, although I have to be totally honest, reason I didn't do last year was £750 for 8 games is $hit....

This is a catch 22, players want to play the big tournaments, but at £105 per player before you get on a plane/car, then hotels for 3 nights, ID Cards(if they are still charging), paint, hire car, food and obviously drink your not getting alot of change out of £450-£500 for what, 2 days of paintball, 4 games a day....come on...please....as much as I enjoy Millennium Events, as much as I love this sport, 4 games in one day....it's just not value for money, yes, the location is amazing, watching other teams, meeting old friends blah blah blah.....but it all comes down to simple value for money. 5 Games in one day was an easier pill to swallow, so why change it?

Then, we have the flipside of the coin, people are more intersted in how they look, how well they beat up on lesser teams and how fast they can shoot their gat than they are in making the effort to get better and play on the big stage, I have been there twice with Escarmouche at Campaign in Crystal Palace and taken 2nd and 3rd two years running and there is no feeling in the world like it. Going on that field, in front of all those people, on the Sunday, in the finals, I would pay it over and over. But, you have to be there, make the sacrafices, put the effort in, in order to get that feeling...or, you can beat up on some kid with a Tippman98 down your local site....I'm not loaded, I have 5 kids, bills, a site to run, but I'm not a fat cat back of the van site owner, I work my backside off to play.

So, I both agree and disagree with Robbo, I agree that "Established" UK teams should be making the effort to support this event and not let some foreign mob take home the Campaign Cup. But I do not agree that the problem lies with site owners, I think the problem lies with teams and team managers in not pushing their players and teams to be the best.....simple as that!!!

Flame me, bad mouth me, do as you will.....but at the end of the day, I'll be at Campaign Cup in Div2(Not Sandbaggin even though I'm the only one to EVER play a Millennium Event), will you???

Sid
I agree with a lot you have said Sid, I own a site up in the north east and promote tournament paintball to my customers. All be it I have only got about 10 people to come into tournament ball ( i have only been running since beginning of march) - a lot due to the cost, as a lot of my customers have been to other sites where they have been told it costs like a grand for a gat and this costs a couple hundred quid and that costs a couple hundred quid etc etc. Now i actively deny this i only paid £190 for my shocker etc. i tell them this and am quite happy to. I have bought markers on baller for them etc (their money unfortunately im not rich) i lend my kit out all the time as well.

I actually loose money every time i introduce people into tourney ball as I dont have sup air at the minute. I just dont have the spare cash as at the minute we are only a small site taking on 30 - 50 customers a week. Not like some sites who take 300 people plus in a weekend let alone a week. I take all the new lads to a local site near me who do have sup air. they now all play but ive never seen them back on my site. This i can cope with.

Where as other sites in my local vacinity wont even entertain tournament ball. ive had some customers turn up and say ive been to here and they took the piss because i was in a yellow shirt and not in camaflague. this isn't the way. a local site owner who i was talking to had never seen an electric gat before a few of showed him. This i think shows the nievity of a lot of site owners in the country. They have their little bubble which is their site and once people are in they dont want to let them out.

I 100% agree with you Robbo that the majority of sites wont incourage tournament ball all they look at is their pockets. Its time the majority of site owners take their heads out their own backsides and look at the whole bigger picture. A lot of tournament players will still play walkons if they offered them, I know i do at other sites in my local area.

Now im hoping to be at campaign if i can find a team to play for even though Im going to slovakia 2 weeks after to play the centurio (ive been saving for a while :D)