UK Disgrace

[MissyQ]

Nick, I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it, honestly, but finance companies exist to offer finance - and will do so with pretty much anything. Paintball companies are around to supply paintball goods. Each to thier own, and a paintball company trying to be a finance company makes no sense to me from any angle. We have to do what everyone else does, and go to the right people for the services we need, not try to re-invent the wheel to do it inside of the industry - the lines of financial credit alone would cripple the industry.
I do think also that you are missing the market a little. I know you have extensive experience with Danish Fields, and that market, but the thread is on UK business, and that business is larger, and in my opinion readier, for such a facility to exist and thrive.

 

[MissyQ]

BTW Missy

- You keep referring to the "good marketing guy".

How many sites do you know that have one of those on staff?

In my experience, most sites are run by people that are very good at customer service, and extremely poor at sales and marketing.

How many sites do you know that does active canvas based sales? - Most just take out an add in the local phone directory, lean back, and wait for the customers to call and book.

It will never cease to amaze me, that so few sites understand how much more business they could generate, canvassing potential customers for a couple of hours each day.

But no, "if you build it they will come" - Kevin Costner was not born in vain.

Anyway - the "smart marketing guy", is yet another service industry could - and should - provide for their customers - yet another service that would greatly ease the transition to more walk on based customers.

Nick

Nick, in a world of fair-play and questionable intellect, that makes sense, but the way to get ahead in this game is to hire a marketing guy and do it yourself. Why is it always up to the industry to provide the tools? For all you know, you have a good marketing guy that lives in your street.

Fact is, as soon as there is a 'professional' businessman, that wants to open a 'professional' facility and make it work, he will hire a marketing guy to reach his customers. It's an essential and part of opening any business which requires a consumer base. He will not expect one to be supplied for him by the industry, and will likely not trust one that is, as his business is too important to him for that.
Of course there are people that just place the ad and sit back, and those people will go broke, while the professional site operator will thrive and expand. Its the law of the jungle, you can't judge people based on the lowest common denominator, or just trust that the existing site operators will see the light and step-up. Thats not how these things happen; People do business plans and industry studies, they get financing, they start building thier facility, and hire a 'good marketing guy'. You make it sound like its too much to ask for, but its something that happens every day, in most countries.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Nick, in a world of fair-play and questionable intellect, that makes sense,

And that makes sense in la la land Missy

We are discussing why rental sites in the UK - and in turn Europe, are not better run - and you expect them to all magically improve, without some help ?

Nick

 

[Dannefaerd]

Is this thread turning into an bit of a rehash from the last "what the hell is UK ball doing?" session... from Nov last year or so.

Correct me if I'm wrong ...

 

[MissyQ]

I wasn't saying that you have questionable intellect Nick, so there's no need to get all defensive hunny.
I was questioning the intellect of a guy that sets up a business without adquate funding and marketing strategy, and relies on the same people he is buying product from to get his financing and marketing strategy. If that's you I apologise.

You Said: "We are discussing why rental sites in the UK - and in turn Europe, are not better run - and you expect them to all magically improve, without some help ? "


thing is, I am not sure that that is what we were discussing, and I think we are still at cross purposes, which is why I am going to try to explain myself rather than call you names (my natural instinct).
I thought we were discussing the reasons why people are not graduating from rental play to rec-ball play in sufficient numbers for the walk-on, and then tournament market to experience the boom that people want to see in the UK tournament scene (specifically - as per the thread title).
I am stating that for the most part, the rental business in the UK is run much better than in the US, and is thus the most organised, safe, and fun way to experience the sport - this is borne out by the impressive rental figures generated in the UK. Not so in the US, where the progression from Rental to Rec happens a lot sooner, sometimes immediately (stats: approx 70% of the US market is rec-ball, approx 90% of the UK business is Rental).
I went on to say that the fact that the rental sites in the UK are run so well may be a contributing factor to the lack of progression (if its more fun to play here - why go and do that?).
I am proposing that the answer to this is the creation of well-run and equally professional arena fields that specialise in that field and market it to the public in a similar way to the better rental sites. By providing this stable and structured environment for rec-ball you validate it as a progressive step. Something that does not happen now. Today they step off the rental site into the wilderness, and there is no adaquate bridge between the rental and the tournament area's. Of course we can only really support 2 of 3 of these in the country, as there is a lot less market for it. But they could be 2 or 3 very good ones, which is the whole point.


Thing is Nick, I do know what I am talking about, on both sides of the Atlantic, and I think this is what is missing. If you think I am in Lalaland then maybe you are wrong. My credentials stack up, and I am talking from direct experience both in the UK and the US. Robbo posted the veiws of the yanks that come over here to look at the Euro market with a veiw to expanding it to mirror the US, but they do not take into account the area's where the UK is superior - the rental site.
I see it from a different (opposite) perspective and have a different point of view as a former (large) field operator (thats a large field, rather than a large Missy - in this case).
What perspective are you coming from? The Danish ex-pro captain? The danish field-owner? Who is more likely to be 'off the play' here?

Was I unclear in my post or do you still think the industry should be subsidising field owners so they can offer cheaper prices, and supplying good marketing people to bad businessmen, because I have been pretty kind to you so far.....

to answer your question:
"We are discussing why rental sites in the UK - and in turn Europe, are not better run - and you expect them to all magically improve, without some help ? "
I expect them to improve with investment. Not industry investment - business investment. It needs to be finantially viable, and it may well be a paintball playing person that does it, but it won't be until someone does do it, that the UK will see the potential it has. I applaud the people that are trying to do it now, and I mean no offence to those people at all. I am sure they would agree with me that if they had a better financial portfolio, and more resources overall, they would be able to do a much better job, and in turn make more money and really churn out some paintballing talent. Are you too nickel and dime to see that? I admit I have limited experience in the Danish field business, but I have some, and I do know that the UK business is very different to the Danish market. Perhaps your own domestic experience is thwarting your judgement?

 

[TJ Lambini]

A rehash, here? Are you suggesting we are swimming in ever decreasing circles while Rome burns, if you'll excuse tha mix of metaphors.

 

[duffistuta]

Duff.

1. I've seen you defend your playing mistakes with great passion

2. Your anger is new to me - i like it.

3. Duffy is one of them. He's also the wisets ****er in any room you happen to be in. In any paintball discussion time will always prove him right.

1. I had plenty of practice.

2. Even Job's patience had its limits...


3. Are you trying to hom off with me? If so, it's working.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

I wasn't saying that you have questionable intellect Nick, so there's no need to get all defensive hunny.
I was questioning the intellect of a guy that sets up a business without adquate funding and marketing strategy, and relies on the same people he is buying product from to get his financing and marketing strategy. If that's you I apologise.

Hehehehehe - nice try - but it takes more to get a rise out of me buddy

I thought we were discussing the reasons why people are not graduating from rental play to rec-ball play in sufficient numbers for the walk-on, and then tournament market

- And when I say "better run" - it is naturally in this context.... if you missed that, I appologise, and direct you to the nearest optician

Thing is Nick, I do know what I am talking about, on both sides of the Atlantic, and I think this is what is missing. If you think I am in Lalaland then maybe you are wrong. My credentials stack up, and I am talking from direct experience both in the UK and the US.

I've never heard of a black woman running a major European field

Anyway... maybe the problem here is, that you think the general rental market can just do like you did.... and I submit that the vast majority of it is in an entirely different situation, and do not have the near perfect circumstances you had for running a field with success.

What perspective are you coming from? The Danish ex-pro captain? The danish field-owner? Who is more likely to be 'off the play' here?

My perspective is one of a professional business manager, with extensive paintball (both tournament and rental) experience..... maybe experience as a site owner is actually a handicap, when we are discussing why the vast majority of fields are apparently only successful (and I use that term loosely) with "business as usual" - the way it has been for 10-15 years?

Was I unclear in my post or do you still think the industry should be subsidising field owners so they can offer cheaper prices, and supplying good marketing people to bad businessmen, because I have been pretty kind to you so far.....

Subsidies have never been on my agenda - you put that out there, and have clearly still missed the whole point... What I have said is, that - for instance - if a rental site wants to convert a field from normal rental play to tournament style paintball, and offer their customers an experience that makes them return at a greater rate than normal rental customer..... there are two essential things that need to change:

- Pricing
- Equipment

So one important point would be upgrading their guns, which is where a supplier could help them out by offering a payment plan, instead of expecting full payment at once...... to the best of my knowledge, you, better than most, will be able to appreciate the benefits of being able to run high end guns for your rental customers.

I also maintain that most paintball sites do not have the experience or knowhow to run a retail shop, which is another area where their suppliers could be immensely helpful.

I expect them to improve with investment. Not industry investment - business investment

And I think industry, IF it is interested in this development - which I think they SHOULD be, should realise they cannot just sit on their asses and wait for some bright field owner to prove the point.... there has to be investments made by both industry and site owners in conjunction.

I applaud the people that are trying to do it now, and I mean no offence to those people at all. I am sure they would agree with me that if they had a better financial portfolio, and more resources overall, they would be able to do a much better job, and in turn make more money and really churn out some paintballing talent. Are you too nickel and dime to see that?

How am I nickle and dime? - you can't in one sentence accuse me of thinking too big, and then in the next for thinking too small.....

And, where have I NOT said more resources are needed?

I admit I have limited experience in the Danish field business, but I have some, and I do know that the UK business is very different to the Danish market. Perhaps your own domestic experience is thwarting your judgement?

Educate me then - how is the UK rental business "very different"?

Nick

P.S. - DAMMIT - you have turned me into Baca

 

[Buddha 3]

But Jay, normal rental groups are also site paint only, and at a much greater mark up, so that is not really a argument.

As soon as you go ask a site owner to convert one of his fields to tournament style paintball, you are effectively asking him to close down an existing income stream for something else - and that something else HAS to seem very attractive, for him to make that leap of faith on his own, without his suppliers giving him better than usual support and backing.

Granted, some site owners may just have a piece of land lyeing around they don't use for anything, or already be in such dire straits that one of their existing fields is not really being utilised all that much.... but by far most fields will be running at close to max capacity.

At any rate, I still don't see the average commercial site owner making great changes in his business, without a much greater effort from industry to facilitate a change they would benefit more from than anyone else.

Nick

Note the bit that says "for starters" in the part you quoted from me.
Obviously a rental group pays more for a box of paint. But experience shows that most rental groups buy one, maybe two extra boxes of paint, where the avarage paintball hooligan will fork out for a box each. So while you may be making 120 Euro's off a box of paint sold to a rental group, and only a fraction of that off the box sold to a walk on, the result is that you sell more paint. To a group of rentals of some twenty odd guys, you sell one, maybe two boxes. To the same amount of walk ons, you sell 15-20 boxes. More boxes of paint sold = more boxes of paint needed from your distributor = a happy distributor = a lower price that you pay for your paint (we all know that the bigger the pallet of paint you buy, the cheaper it gets per box) = a bigger profit on both your rentals and your walk ons (there's your better than usual support already).
At the same time you encourage the sale of paintball gear to the walk ons. Either you have your own (little) shop, you can order from a catalogue, or, something I've seen work well, you have some stuff that you sell for the distributor at a commission. It ain't that hard Nick. You can use all the theorising that you want, but I've seen it work. More than once.

As far as it not being workable for the smaller businesses, I agree, but I already said so in my initial post.

You also say this: "As soon as you go ask a site owner to convert one of his fields to tournament style paintball". I find that funny. You are not the only person doing this, but somehow most of the people here think in either rental play, or tournament style play. Before site owners start thinking about setting up a tournament style field, they could just open up one of their fields (again, if they are big enough) for the walk ons. Surprise surprise, but most walk ons couldn't give two sh*ts about tournament play.

Here's how it could work.
Mom and pop fields just stay as they are. They got enough to do already with their minimal capacity.
Medium to larger sites can have an open day every month or every two weeks where the walk ons can come and shoot paint. This caters to many of the weekend warriors that are out there.
Larger sites can have Sup'Air fields and the whole shebang. You don't need that many in a country the size of England. But you do have the trickle up effect of people starting out as rentals, perhaps getting into it and buying their own gear. They then have a place to play, where they can live out their Rambo fantasies and paint their faces green for all we care. If they don't grow out of that, fine. But if they want to progress to tournament play, that is also possible. But right now, there is not enough of the middle step, the catering to the weekend warriors with their own gear. Either they can't play at all, or they are forced to play a game they don't really want to play (yet).
Again, I've seen it work.

I've experienced all this stuff from extremely close by. I can honestly understand where you are coming from, and why many site owners are hesitant to do so, but the rewards are there. And I fully agree with you, it takes some good sales skills to sell this concept to the site owners that have the capacity to do this. Most of them started out small and grew, but still remain that small site mentality. Which is not bad for the short term, but can be improved upon. And unless somebody schools them, it ain't gonna happen. So I totally agree with you when you say that we need a marketing man.

 

[Wadidiz]

DAMMIT - you have turned me into Baca

You've surpassed Baca, Nick. Not even he has begun to use this superior way to list and answer points. You still have to scroll up and down to see what he's talking about (get the hint, Paul?)

A side point to this discussion is that tournament organizers and tournament leagues aren't doing enough to promote tournament PB and bring in new blood IMO.

When I moved back to the US after starting to play PB here in Sweden in the early 90s, one of the first things I did was go to a big American tournament. That was the Masters in Nashville--I think it was '93. Not only did they have a lot of fields running in the woods but they had a lot of PB activity going on in the central area around the trade stands. They had walk-on speedball games going on the whole time (which was great fun). There was a top-gun competition with PGPs. There was a bike and shoot competition in which first place took home a mountain bike and a 'Cocker. Just to name some of the things going on.

I've been at Millennium tournaments where passers-by have asked if there's some way they could compete or try PB. At last autumn's Asian-Pacific championship in Kuala Lumpur they ran games with rental guns for beginners.

Why can't the big tournaments do things like that? For example, have a target shoot where you can pay to shoot someone like Chris Lasoya, Robbo or Andy Piper while they try to avoid getting hit? Why not have walk-on games? (Magued and co. did something like this with Reball last year in Paris.) Why not have competition for people who get the bug spontaneously?

And, if they do that, why not promote the tournaments more locally to get people out for such activities PLUS the chance to see the best in world compete?

Then agressively promote the chance to get started with PB locally with information and brochures.

Doing and thinking like this might make some difference n'est pas?