UK Disgrace

[KitsuneAndy]

Certainly no apology is necessary but once again Andy, you seem to be missing another point.
Traditional thinking had the vast majority of tourney ballers being trickle throuhgs from Rental to rec and finally to tourney and so whilst you acknowledge the self evident result of increasing that base demographic and then the tourney ranks swelling as a result, then once again this is dependent upon site owners providing those facilities for that transition.

The big companies are sitting there with product on their shelves waiting to service anybody who wants to make the jump but unless we generate the numbers playing walk ons then those shelves are gonna stay full.
Your whole approach is predicated upon the notion site owners will be complicit and they have already proved they don't wanna know.
And so if you wanna get pro active, you need to put together a package and directly market that to the public.
And as I have said many times before, it has to have tourney ball DVD's as its central theme.

Most sites just won't allow you to do this marketing to their customer base for obvious reasons (well obvious to our site owners anyway) and so our only conduit seems to be what Delta Force do and go straight to the public with the product..but in this case, our product is soooooo much more attractive.

I'm not missing the point Pete, I do know that the best way to do would be to directly market what we have. But I have to look at what I have and the best ways I could go about gaining support for my idea's.

If I produce a product that introduces people to the ideas of walkons/scenario/tourneys all in one go then it means I have a greater number of companies that I can go to and ask for help. Some site owners will be more likely to support it as they are not opposed to walk on's (the guy that owns the Skirmish sites in Norfolk likes walk on players as they dont cost him anything other than the marshalls fee, no kit to clean etc). Other groups organise big games/scenario games that may be interested and the shops sell equipment good enough for all three.

So in looking at doing something more general than just promoting tourney ball I am increasing my list of potential investors and at the same time increasing the likelyhood that people will actually respond to it. As great as tourney ball is most people would want to take smaller steps than recball one day tourney the next.

But obviously the long term effect on tourney ball of this would be a much slower process than a strategy aimed specifically at tourneys.

The idea of a roadshow travelling around setting up stalls with dvd players some promo material etc showing off sup air is fantastic, but would require a considerable amount of expense. Whereas I am simply trying to do my part in the best way I can, putting the experience of working in promotions that I do have to the best use that I can think of.

 

[Buddha 3]

I respectfully have to tell you, that walk on fees are not good business, ask any site owner

(walk on fee is what I have read you have used as an argument in previous debates).

If you mean something else, please elaborate.

Nick

And

The repeat custom of people who organise large groups is very important to rec sites. For example some people repeatedly organise groups of friends to play every other month etc. Paying out 50 quid every once in a while for a 'great day out' is affordable and appeals. The revenue from a group of say 20 people is nearly 1000 pounds for some sites. You convert that keen group organiser into a rec tournament player and you lose that profit quality...he won't be interested in organising large parties to pay premium price for a day out in the woods anymore, and most of his friends will not want to invest in playing more seriously.

I guess it comes down to how attractive joe public finds playing rec ball every so often as opposed to playing walk-on regularly (+ investing in kit). The American market is culturally different and the same model may not fit the UK.

There is more than just the pay off of walk on fees. Any sensible site owner will run it at a site only paint thing for starters.
As I pointed out earlier, this has worked for a number of sites here in Holland. Their business has gone up dramatically.
Also, we noticed that many of the guys that get hooked and start playing paintball regularly and perhaps get their own gear, tend to bring in more rental business too, as they are enthused and mention paintball as one of the alternatives for a stagdo/co-workers day out/thing to do with mates.

History speaks for itself really.

However, I do see a problem for the cottage industry that only has one playing field or similar, and can only host small(ish) groups.

As far as the American vs European culture goes, that holds no water. People over here enjoy playing paintball as much as they do over in the US once they play it.

 

[Baca Loco]

While I have no more knowledge or expertise in the UK or Euro paintball scene than I've acquired from conversations and forum threads I feel entitled to offer a couple comments given I've actually read--most--of this thread and that degree of commitment has earned me the right to comment.

It seems to me there is no harm and some possible grassroots value in players putting forth the sorts of efforts suggested. Will that alone serve? No, but so what? However, it also seems to me one of the most valuable things individual players can do is support the sites that are trying to model a new (different, better) more tourney oriented way because longer term the success of those sites matters. Every time one fails it sends a message.

Pilot programs. If industry is interested and prepared to support the development of an expanded paintball perception and industry it is one thing to have something on offer and another to demonstrate it works. For a relatively modest commitment if Industry were prepared to help implement and support their vision of another way, another avenue of paintball, actual success would begin to break down the current levels of resistance. Best of all there exist a few sites and operators who, I imagine, would do their damnedest to make it work if they had that support and industry expertise available. So my proposal takes into account Pete's top down approach in a manner similar to what Nick has suggested and as a limited commitment on the part of Industry gives them a chance to prove an alternative model has merit while at the same time giving the support to the current sites most commited to that idea and most worthy of that support.
Wouldn't pay off overnight but if it works it might just be the foot in the door to the larger change y'all want and hope for. Just an idea.

Ok, reading the thread probably didn't merit this long a post but ...

 

[MissyQ]

While I have no knowledge or expertise in the UK or Euro paintball scene :

Who are you? You're not the real Baca Loco! I call shens.....

 

[Baca Loco]

Who are you? You're not the real Baca Loco! I call shens.....

Sombody has been slumming -- again.


I tried for humble, O Queen of trashy animal print Spandex. Cut me some slack. Besides (in this instance ) I'm not suggesting it's a great idea, only that given the seeming consensus it might be a workable first step.

 

[Mario]

Something ive been pondering whilst reading this thread - What has the UK paintball scene done for PGI?

 

[Robbo]

I'm not missing the point Pete, I do know that the best way to do would be to directly market what we have. But I have to look at what I have and the best ways I could go about gaining support for my idea's.

If I produce a product that introduces people to the ideas of walkons/scenario/tourneys all in one go then it means I have a greater number of companies that I can go to and ask for help. Some site owners will be more likely to support it as they are not opposed to walk on's (the guy that owns the Skirmish sites in Norfolk likes walk on players as they dont cost him anything other than the marshalls fee, no kit to clean etc). Other groups organise big games/scenario games that may be interested and the shops sell equipment good enough for all three.

So in looking at doing something more general than just promoting tourney ball I am increasing my list of potential investors and at the same time increasing the likelyhood that people will actually respond to it. As great as tourney ball is most people would want to take smaller steps than recball one day tourney the next.

But obviously the long term effect on tourney ball of this would be a much slower process than a strategy aimed specifically at tourneys.

The idea of a roadshow travelling around setting up stalls with dvd players some promo material etc showing off sup air is fantastic, but would require a considerable amount of expense. Whereas I am simply trying to do my part in the best way I can, putting the experience of working in promotions that I do have to the best use that I can think of.

Andy, good luck mate and if there were a thousdand more like you (and Sid), then I might be handing my cynic hat over but alas there isn't....

Still - we can fall back on the 'Butterfly effect' and hope that when you flutter your paintball wings in your local mall somewhere that it causes a tornado of interest in tourney ball across the UK ......we can but live in hope Andy

 

[mikey601]

Andy, good luck mate and if there were a thousdand more like you (and Sid), then I might be handing my cynic hat over but alas there isn't....

Still - we can fall back on the 'Butterfly effect' and hope that when you flutter your paintball wings in your local mall somewhere that it causes a tornado of interest in tourney ball across the UK ......we can but live in hope Andy

So are you saying we shouldnt bother?

 

[MissyQ]

of course he isn't, but more of the moaners need to actively do something about the situation before they earn a right to bitch. If you were not organising the Forum Battle, do you think anyone else would?
Probably not, which is why individuals always make the difference, not the packs of 'hangers-on' that plague every decision made with their own worthless opinions from the comfort of their couch.

Of course the opinions themselves are not 'worthless' (don't want to upset anyone), just the useless slobs that have them....

 

[Dave Elliott]

Blue print - yes please!

Pete,

Throughout this thread you've reffered to some kind of blueprint carrot that site operators have had dangled in front of them. I missed it the first time round can someone offer it again please?

I have a five year plan for my site that will eventually include supair fields and a shop. My biggest worry is that as an Ex-tournament player who still wants to play, i am doing what i am doing to facilitate a personal playground. Every time i look at the numbers i cannot justify the investment to try and attract a supair scene. I will do it anyway because i love it but my bank manager will hate me for years.

Any fresh thinking on how to go about crossing the divide would be greatly appreciated (apologies if you've been through it a hundred times already).

The US industry players you've reffered to -YB, Avery and Ceranski all have great experience within the trade and unarguable records but is there a chance they could have misunderstood the UK trade slightly? Was it perhaps a little presumptious of PMI and NPS to expect to be able to revolutionise the way UK site operators want to operate and be supplied?

Yes many of the UK's site operators are too stuck in their ways but many are also tournament players -the emotional pull for tournament and supair must be the same with many as what i am feeling and they still won't make the investment. There has to be some very good reason for that surely. It's not cause we're all a buch of uninspired tightwads.

Something that i haven't seen considered in this thread is how physically suitable a paintball site is for putting in a supair arena. The vast majority of sites are woodland - how many of those have a suitable area that could be set aside and redeveloped to fit in a supair field? Thats assuming the relevant permissions from Landowners and local councils were easily come by. I can only speak from my own personal experience in researching the process and knowledge of all the paintball sites i visited in my tournament career, that the costs involved in providing in a natural woodland anything slightly comparable to what customers will see on their dvd are facking enormous.

It's a long term investment that will have to be backed up by some excellent marketing and quality customer service. When the major paint suppliers are cutting each others throats (and margins) to get a customer what right have they blaming the situation on the site operator for short sightedness and lack of loyalty.

My loyalty is to the sport and to my friends and people who have never ****ed me over. However as a businessman i have to have value for money -the best product at the best price. The market positoning of all competing paintball operators would i suspect be largely reflected by those who didnt hussle the best deals and do what was financially right for their business and if that includes not catering for supair then that's their business.

If it's just a matter of national pride that we are saying we need to re-inject
something into the UK tournament scene then you will have to rely on the site operators who are emotionally involved in the game and have it running through their veins (Warren and Dave and me one day).
There are a lot of site operators who know nothing about the sport at all, nothing of its history or evolution and they have no passion for the game many many are not even or never have been players. They are the people who see a good business opportunity and follow it through. They run passable, even succesful venues and make profits. They are doing what they know and many have never had anything other than passing contact with the tournament side of paintball.
Surely their ignorance is, in this case an excuse?