Triggerbounce scandal at CC finals amB!

[Linqon]

Exactly!

Originally posted by cjansen
That's really it, right there. If you can make it bounce at all, it shouldn't be on the field. [...]
Bottom line - if you can make it bounce, no matter how you pull the trigger, it shouldn't be on the field.

Actually, no.

Millenium rules, v. 1.2: §11.3, page 8, footnote: "These tests will be performed with the marker held in a manner and position consistent with playing on the field."

Which I interpret that you are only allowed to test the marker under realistic playing conditions.

/Linqon

 

[manike]

Re: Exactly!

Originally posted by IanC
Has anybody found a particular type of switch more prone to bouncing? My Impluse doesn't seem to bounce, but it has an enourmous lever switch above the trigger.

Could it be things with optoelectronic trigger switches are more prone to it?

Dome switches are the worst for it.

Originally posted by Linqon
Millenium rules, v. 1.2: §11.3, page 8, footnote: "These tests will be performed with the marker held in a manner and position consistent with playing on the field."

Which I interpret that you are only allowed to test the marker under realistic playing conditions.

Correct. That was my contribution to the rule and I think a fairly important one, since I can get many guns to bounce given 'certain conditions' which will never or exremely rarely ever happen on the field.

What we were trying to stop is accidental and dangerous multiple discharges as well as people blatantly getting a competitive advantage. Other than that, some common sense needs to be applied in my opinion.

 

[cjansen]

Re: Exactly!

Originally posted by Linqon
Actually, no.

Millenium rules, v. 1.2: §11.3, page 8, footnote: "These tests will be performed with the marker held in a manner and position consistent with playing on the field."

Which I interpret that you are only allowed to test the marker under realistic playing conditions.

/Linqon

Yes, I understand the rule, but I guess I should have clarrified my post a little better. I'm not saying that the marshalls should sit there and fcuk with it until they make it bounce. That's definitely not right. I'm saying that it's the players responsibility to ensure that there is no posibility of it bouncing before they go onto the field. If it then bounces when tested by the marshalls, it's your own fault, and you take your punishment.

The real problem with the rule regarding trigger bounce is that there is a provision for technical malfunction, but that section never seems to get applied. It always seems to be instant player ban, and you're fcuked. The only way to avoid the ban is to immediately call yourself out, and report the problem to the marshall.

 

[raehl]

Triggers are wierd.

Esp. electronic 0.2 mm pull triggers of the past few years.

We had a matrix last weekend that wasn't bouncing - as long as you pulled on the lower half of the trigger. I tapped it once on the upper half and it shot 8 times.

Also, make sure you test your gun *WITH PAINT*. Actually shooting paint changes teh recoil, so it might not bounce without paint but bounce with paint.

- Chris

 

[Linqon]

Re: Re: Exactly!

Originally posted by cjansen
I'm not saying that the marshalls should sit there and fcuk with it until they make it bounce. That's definitely not right.

That was how your post sounded at first, but I'm glad that we agree.

IMHO I think we need to come up with a better way to measure TB. When an important descision like this is made by "yea, it -feels- like TB" instead of "look at this machine - two trigger pulses within 10 ms, TB" there will always be arguments.

/Linqon

 

[mark5evo]

From my observations at CC it seems as if the test has evolved to pulling the trigger as many times and as slowley as can be until it bounces - hardley realistic playing conditions! Should the test instead be

1) one pull slowley all the way back
2) then three pulls fast with one finger
3) then rip it for a second or two

if it does not bounce under these coditions then I suggest its "safe".

Just an idea

 

[manike]

Re: Re: Exactly!

Originally posted by cjansen
The real problem with the rule regarding trigger bounce is that there is a provision for technical malfunction, but that section never seems to get applied. It always seems to be instant player ban, and you're fcuked. The only way to avoid the ban is to immediately call yourself out, and report the problem to the marshall.

That section would get applied if players used it! It's up to the player. Most unfortunately would try and wait to the end of the game rather than pull themselves out if they have a genuine malfunction... in which case they are breaking the rules and take their penalty.

Originally posted by mark5evo
From my observations at CC it seems as if the test has evolved to pulling the trigger as many times and as slowley as can be until it bounces - hardley realistic playing conditions! Should the test instead be

1) one pull slowley all the way back
2) then three pulls fast with one finger
3) then rip it for a second or two

if it does not bounce under these coditions then I suggest its "safe".

Just an idea

Have you even read the rules and testing method on TB? (be honest now please).

If judges keep pulling the trigger very slowly or with the gun held loosely or pointed straight down then they haven't and don't let them penalise you.

A group of players went to some serious effort (on this very forum) to come up with some rules about trigger bounce and how to test for it. Those rules are not so far from the 'suggestion' you make above.

You know what (message to everyone)!

If you get done for trigger bounce, and don't know the rule or the testing method they should use to check your gun, then hard f&*(ing luck.

It's your fault. Stand up and take some responsibility for your gun and your situation. Learn the F*&(ing rule!

 

[RoryM]

Righty-ho....

To those that did not witness this incident, maybe a few more facts to what happened should made apparent.

1/Why was the gun pulled?

During the game, 2 marshalls noticed the rate of fire on this gun, as both tried to look at him, from on side when thay had a clear view of the trigger, they could see him walking the trigger and firing a steady rate. But when they could not see it, the rate of fire was to quote 'mental'. Therefore they wanted it checked out and asked for it at the end of the game.

2/ Who decided the gun was in breach of the rules?

Once the gun was pulled, it was tested on the field by the head judge, who immedeatly found the bounce, and then called the ulti mates who agreed with his findings and subsequently took action according to the rules.

3/ Max looked at the gun.......

And Max has what authority within the millenium? After more than one other person found it was quite easily to recreate the bounce effect, I dont think there was much point in going any further. The fact is it happened ON THE FIELD, it was checked and replicated ON THE FIELD, after that, not wishing to sound flippant, nothing else can be done, said or proved.

Mikko, please try to understand that we are all relatively ignorant of what exaclty our electro guns are doing, only those with vast engineering/technical backgrounds (Mr. Rice, Mr. Stevens, Mr. Bonich etc,etc etc) can say what happened to the gun after a very thorough search I would imagine. I don't think Max quite falls into those categories

The cold hard truth of it all is that it did, it was discovered, and your team unfortunately paid the price. If it was your team at the other end and you thought that there was a problem with an oppositions marker, you would want the rules applied to the full extent, yes?

Stop looking for other people to blame.

 

[mark5evo]

I take your point but have to come back to you and say that on at least two occasions I saw and heard players saying to those checking their markers that the method they were using was not within the rules only to be told that it was up to them to decide if the marker was bouncing or not!

And yes I have read the rules which are as you say similar but not the same - I am sure that many players more talented than myself came up with the current rules but was just providing some thoughts upon ways to improve them

 

[manike]

Originally posted by mark5evo
on at least two occasions I saw and heard players saying to those checking their markers that the method they were using was not within the rules only to be told that it was up to them to decide if the marker was bouncing or not!

If that were the case and someone decided my gun was bouncing using an incorrect test method then I would have the head judge/Ultimate explain the rule to the marshalls and have them corrected. No need to be penalised if you are in the right. But to do that obviously you would need to read the rule yourself

Along with spare paint and tools, maybe the pod biatch should also carry a copy of the rules?

I definitely think everyone should make an effort to read the latest rules. They have changed a lot over the last year or two!

Not all judges read the internet so not all are familiar with the new rules. Maybe certain important base rules should be provided to a field on a laminated card...