Trigger Bounce Redux..... Rules anyone?

[Tom Allen]

Hi Sam, I think all marshalls do a thankless job, which has got to be pretty hard work, and yes sometimes a hit is missed or a decision doesn't go the right way, but it can't be easy out there, paint coming from every direction.
But i can't help thinking that in this case the rule is being stretched a bit too far, no-one wants a fully auto gun that shoots umpteen balls per trigger pull. Isn't there only supposed to be five tests for trigger pull, and the last is a rapid fire test, just to check for a turbo board.
Rules should be clear and definate, so that your job as a marshall is made easier, and allows you concentrate on more important issues in the game.

To all marshalls, keep up the good work guys, without you it would be a free for all.

 

[raehl]

Whelp...

I think part of the problem is manufacturing. We pulled at least 5 guns for bouncing on Saturday at one of our events, and that was out of about 80 players. And I know most, if not all, of these players didn't have their guns set up to do this intentionally...

but they did do it. I got one matrix we pulled to rip off 6-8 shots just by tapping the trigger at the right point; the scary part is that even after a half hour of work the guy could only get it down to 2-3 shots per pull (although in his defense, if you pulled the trigger like he was pulling it, it was just one shot, one pull.)

But you know what? All this BS about "I can make any gun bounce" is just that. Noboddy's gun bounced 5 years ago unless you had one of them new shockers that bufferred shots. You can configure any gun to NOT bounce, and if you can't, you should return it and get your money back. If you're going to spend $1000 on one of them newfangled electronic markers, it is your responsibility to make sure the thing works right. Your equipment, make sure it works.


- Chris

 

[Walker (Nitro)]

Originally posted by sjt19
I would call it being professional and dedicated to doing a good job personally.....

There is being a good proffesional marshal that will gain respect and discipline from players, and then there is your jobsworth who will make mistakes and be rather too lawful and then undoubtedly get aggro from players for being as i stated 'Over-zealous'......

Originally posted by sjt19
It was bouncing though wasnt it! regardless whether it took the judge (me) 1 or 50 go's at it, i got it to bounce and so did the other judges on the field

.

So that would explain your comment to me when i was stressing the rule of not being able to test a gun after a game had finished of "Were the marshal's we can do whatever the hell we want" then would it?.....

Originally posted by sjt19
The rules are clear, your gun was bouncing and you got caught.

What? Got caught trying to Bounce my gun? My car can do 140mph but i dont travel at that speed.......

Originally posted by sjt19
What is pathetic is you coming on here and trying to blame 'over zealous' judges for your gun bouncing. now why come on here and make yourself look silly, i was not gonna say 'hey guys, look, i got this guys gun to bounce, he is a cheat, wanna know his name?'. So why do you try to blame the judge for your shortcomings?

Considering there were no shortcomings, i.e i did not pick up a penalty, I dont see it as trying to blame the judges for my gun bouncing. Was it you who came up to me at the end of the game and said "Can i see that gun player, you were firing rather quick then"? if it was, and you were the same person that said "we all use E-blades mate we know what they are capable of" then why the hell didnt you notice me double tapping???????? Can you honestly say you saw me trying to get my finger on that activation point and get my gun to bounce?

Originally posted by sjt19
I shoot a cocker to, and have it set up so that it will not under any circumstances bounce. The ultimate made the decision as to what the penalty should be, so why blame the judges.....? why not blame him? cos you know he was right thats why. The bottom line is that the gun was bouncing, and thats final.

I have never had a problem with bounce, everyone else that picked up the gun and tested it for bounce did not find bounce, I DOUBLE TAP THE F-IN TRIGGER!!!!!!! the whole point of this post is that i found the way the judges handled the situation was as if i had murdered someone! When also i blatently did not bounce my gun during the game....

Its like a copper pulling over someone because thier car can do over the speed limit! Its an absolute Joke, and you know im not the only one to agree with me here, look at Hypnotize, Nexus the list can go on......

Originally posted by sjt19
Jeez

grow up...

 

[goose]

All this trigger bounce stuff....

First
There are SPECIFIC instructions in the rules stating how trigger bounce will be tested. This is the ONLY acceptable definition on how to to find trigger bounce.

If any other way was used then it should be an invalid finding. PERIOD.

Second
ALL team captains should know the rules, and especially the rules on a subject such as this - IT COULD COST YOU A TOURNAMENT FOR CHRISSAKES.

If you had your gun/player disqualified because of "overzealous" refs, or refs who did not follow the procedure, then it is your own fault. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Third
Sam, while some of the statements you make are generally acceptable - and I more than applaud the job you did all weekend, you really busted your ass - I must say that you need to take a step back and chill a little.

If you found a gun that bounces 1 out of 50 times, guess what - ACCORDING TO THE RULES, the gun is LEGAL.

The problem I see with all this TB stuff is - people are forgetting exactly what the rule is put there for. Yes it is to stop people from cheating, but rules also need to be taken with some common sense. If it takes a ref 50 tries to get a trigger to shoot 2 extra balls - AND THIS WHEN THE SITUATION AND FIRING PLATFORM IS CONTROLLED - what are the chances of a player being able to do it under fire while running/crawling/ducking.

NO BLOODY LIKELY

Now if the guns you pulled would have passed the test - AS OUTLINED IN THE RULES - then the players have something to bitch about. If the guns, when tested according to rules, still bounce then the players have no one but themselves to blame - READ THE DAMN RULES.

If a ref tries to get your gun DQ'ed by using "illegal" testing techniques don't settle for it - KNOW THE RULES.


goose

P.S. Sam this was not ment as a dig at you - mush respect to you and the job you did, you are definatley a passionate player - but pleasse don't let your passion cloud your judgement.

 

[manike]

All this trigger bounce stuff....

Originally posted by goose
Now if the guns you pulled would have passed the test - AS OUTLINED IN THE RULES - then the players have something to bitch about. If the guns, when tested according to rules, still bounce then the players have no one but themselves to blame - READ THE DAMN RULES.

If a ref tries to get your gun DQ'ed by using "illegal" testing techniques don't settle for it - KNOW THE RULES.

Been reading this with interest but Goose sums it up.

How many players (and judges) have read the latest rules before attending the event?

You should do and you should be upto date with any changes in effect.

It's your responsibilty to know the rules and how they will affect you.

Hell, Dynasty won the World Cup two years ago, purely because they KNEW the rules and that a judge had made a wrong call.

People need to READ the RULES!

 

[Walker (Nitro)]

All this trigger bounce stuff....

Originally posted by goose

Third
Sam, while some of the statements you make are generally acceptable - and I more than applaud the job you did all weekend, you really busted your ass

Agreed....

Thanks Goose.

 

[Walker (Nitro)]

Re: All this trigger bounce stuff....

Originally posted by manike
People need to READ the RULES!

I did know the rules, as soon as i put this forward to the marshals i was basically ignored and told "Were the marshals we can do what we want".....

Even players (and respectable ones i might add) from the sidelines were shouting to me that you were not allowed to check a gun for bounce after a game has finished, they are to be done before.

 

[goose]

Walker....

Guns can be checked any time for TB - just like they can be chronoed on the field.

But if your guns where incorrectly tested - by this I mean contrary to what the rules state - then you should not have left the field until the marshalls/ultimates checked the guns according to what is written.

Stick to the rules people - and insist that the marshalls do also.

goose

 

[manike]

Re: Re: All this trigger bounce stuff....

Originally posted by Walker (Nitro)
Even players (and respectable ones i might add) from the sidelines were shouting to me that you were not allowed to check a gun for bounce after a game has finished, they are to be done before.

I don't see anything in the rules that says specifically when a gun must be checked.

Can you point it out for me. The rules are HERE! .

If it is about to be used (i.e. going on the field), being used (i.e. during a game) or been used (just as a game is finishing or finished, but before people leave the field) then I think these are acceptable times to check a gun.

I think it is actually best for the judges not to interfere in the game and actually wait until it is over to check a gun that they aren't sure sure about. That's what happens to me regularly and I am very happy to have them check my gun at the end of the game or beginning rather than during. If a judge is sure a gun is dodgy then I can understand a check during the game also.

Here is the ruling on a legal or illegal trigger.

14 In short: one pull – one shot
Judges testing method:
First, the judge will fully depress and hold the trigger. While keeping the trigger fully depressed, the judge will attempt
to move the trigger side to side. The judge will then release the trigger. No more than one paintball may have been
fired. Second, the judge will as quickly as possible fully depress and then release the trigger. No more than one paintball
may have been fired. Third, the judge will apply sideway pressure to the trigger and then attempt to fully depress the
trigger. No more than one paintball may have been fired. Fourth, the judge will slowly, over a period not to exceed
two seconds, fully depress the trigger in one continuous motion and then, over a period not to exceed two seconds,
slowly release the trigger in one continuous motion. No more than one paintball may have been fired in any of the four
instances. Fifth, the judge will fire the marker at a rate of fire of approximately 6 shots per second, to test for Turbo
mode. The marker may not appear to fire more than one shot per trigger pull. If any of the five tests are failed, a player
may request that the complete set of five tests is repeated an additional two times. The marker will be deemed legal if it
passes every subsequent test and be otherwise deemed illegal. These tests will be performed with the marker held in a
manner and position consistent with playing on the field. The testing must be confirmed by the ultimate judge of the
tournament.

I've often been asked to check guns and can honestly say people can set their guns to fit within the rules.

I had a chat with flash a while back and he showed me a gun with trigger bounce and later after setting it up the same gun without. And it seemed just as fast to me and my fingers.

My race gun had bounce originally, now it does not. Job done.

 

[A.B]

Reading your post walker, you could of been observing events unfolding on the splatch field for our team on Satuarday.

I have the same set up ie E-blade in factory fast and halo.

I also walk the trigger i do NOT ever go for TB and it is offensive to suggest that i would intentially use this illegal procedure in a game.

my blade was also pulled for trigger bounce after we won a game.

Now i'm not gonna say anything against the marshalls, they worked they're arses off, and of all the fields i played i felt they we're the best.

Moose came down and checked my blade and yellow carded me for it. He could of penalised the team, possibly losing us the game which we so badly needed to win. He gave me the oppurtunity to adjust my blade before my next game stating that it would be checked whilst chronoing on- fair enough.

my problem is after hours of tinkering, i still after many attempts can get my blade to bounce. what this means is regardless of my attempts any marshall with enough time will get it to bounce my solution put a spring over the triggers rearward travel grub screw to increase the return force of the trigger. Increases the force substantially required to fire the marker.

this is a problem inherent with electro markers, short or long there will always be a point in the triggers travel where if the trigger is hovered over this point, it will fire repeatedly with the recoil of the gun moving the marker.

Hmmm heres a thought, every force requires an equal force.
meaning even if the gun is moving on it's recoil you still have to impart an equal force on your finger to fire the trigger, therefore your finger has exerted a force on the trigger!

Once again Moose thankyou for your cool head on satuarday, and for taking the time to explain.

AB