Ton Tons @ CC

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by manike
I take time off from my real work and finish that device I told you about years ago, and make it mandatory.

That way, no velocity cheats and set in stone rof control.

You may get FA cheats and break out modes that do FA, but you wouldn't have high velocities, and you wouldn't go over the set ROF.

We could even force people to have lower ROF for say the first 5 seconds to enable better breakouts... we could do anything when it comes to controlling ROF and velocity.

I just need the time to finish it. Time is the one thing I don't have.

I'm still working on, believe it or not, but my 'real' work/job and having some semblance of a life is getting in the way. It also needs a decent electronics engineer to program it, and I don't have anyone as quick or as cheap as Nick does to work on it with me.

Sorry to go all secret on those that don't know what I am talking about, but it's something I've had as a back burner project for a while and don't want to give away just yet.

Maybe I'll talk to the NPPL powers at Miami and see if we can go forwards together to make a finished prototype.

p.s. You really think Bush is in control?

That was what I hoped you'd say Si, and I'm glad to hear it's still on the backburner. I would be interested to hear the NPPL's response, simply because your device calls for a cap (which IMO is an essential part of creating these new enforceable rules) and I think the NPPL will cntinue to fight against any notion of capping ROF.

And Dubya, in control? Maybe of his own bowel movements...

 

[Robbo]

The NPPL ain't gonna accept no capping......end of !

Next........

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Robbo
The NPPL ain't gonna accept no capping......end of !

Next........

Then the NPPL ain't gonna have enforceable gun rules for a while yet. They may be able to sort the safety issue - which is priority no.1 - but not gun cheats per se. You're going to have a Zeno's Paradox situation Pete.

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Originally posted by Robbo
The NPPL ain't gonna accept no capping......end of !

Next........

Just a question with all respect: how are the refs going to be able to discern what the cheating guns with ramping ROF sound like if they don't work in an environment where a cap is set pretty near what is humanly possible? As you know, the case has been made here that PSP, NXL and Millennium refs have become so acclimated to the sound of 15bps that the CLEAR cheaters, such as those who use break modes, stick out like a sore thumb (and there's no reason for reffing mistakes with this when it is so blatant regardless of Nick's scepticism).

I know that you alone don't stand for whatever policies NPPL make. I suppose you're just stating what reality is. I'm just trying to make NPPL's stance jibe with the stance you have taken and that I, as an individual, agree with.

In other words, what is your position on this?

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Here's some thoughts and maybe Robbo has some of the same ideas:

(This, of course, while we're waiting for more bullet-proof technology to develop.)

Now that the Pact IV shot timers are getting increasingly widespread maybe some experimentation could take place by trusted techies to find out how fast humans can really shoot. We take certified true-semi-only setups and combine them with the fastest fingers known to the sport. Then record that sound, whether it's 15, 17 or 20bps. Then we have all the refs who would qualify as scrutineers, including head refs, sleep with that sound for a while. (I have a wav recording of 15bps but I don't know how to post it.) Then we record the sound of some fast gun setups using break modes, which I'm convinced exceed 30bps.

For sake of helping answer honest questions in this discussion couldn't some kind soul who has access to what's needed record and post the sound of, say, 18bps compared to 25 and 30?

 

[Beaker]

Manike etc - can I ask you hop on over here...

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52052

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

I can't remember where I got this (maybe it was here) but something like this might be the key: http://www.accucounter.com/timedate.htm

Even if not this specific device or some modification thereof perhaps a shot timer combined with a velocity reader in the form of a small attachment to the muzzle would do the trick. This could be attached before a game and then (simpler than using a transmitter or some governor-type shut-off with the complications of a standard interface to guns) read immediately after the game in question. Perhaps some kind of light and/or audible signal could be pre-programmed for calling attention to violations during game time.

I think this could be technologically achieved without gigantic costs-per-unit.

Am I wrong?

 

[Missy Q]

Nick - drop it before you look silly (again). I don't have anything to talk to you about. You'll only wind me up. The NPPL cut all the bad eggs and have done after aany and all events. Did you get asked to ref again after HB? That was the only event you went to, right?

I think Shamu put it best. If the guy is pulling the trigger 10 times and the gun is ramping to the feed-rate of the loader then the guy should get pulled immediately. Give it 2 games and half the ramp cheating will go away. I'm not saying that's the answer, but an interim to the answer, and yes, I do believe that refs are more than capable of making that decision. Of course the players will scream blue murder, but they scream blue murder in virtually every game anyway, so what's the difference? I just think the obvious cheats should be pulled. It won't help with the more sophisticated cheats, but at least short term it would stop people taking the absolute piss, and literally laughing in the face of the rule-book.

Pete - you were talking about whether anyone takes notice of what is written in the forums. I was disappointed when you resigned from the NPPL rules comittee, as you actually had a direct line between the thoughts posted here and the means to get them heard. You still have influence on the comittee and on issues regarding ramping perhaps you should get the p8ntballer consensus over. A good way to do this would perhaps be a poll.

Who is in favor of refs having more power to pull obvious gun cheats (Baca would doubtless say 'define obvious', but that would be up to the rules guys)
Who is in favor of teams being able to cheat like fxck until the means to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they are scumbags?
Who is in favor of capping rof and halving the cheat issue, but not eliminating it.
Who is in favor of NPPL boards being issued at events, if a) they had to pay for them, and b) they didn't.

That way everyone can give an opinion, not just those with the loudest voices

There is a DVD coming out soon that shows the underbelly of the game, its not pretty (highly entertaining though) and you would not want to show it to anyone that wanted to invest in the 'sport', but it's real, which is pretty sad.

I still feel that there are split standards here. The players are, in my opinion, sinking to the lowest common denominator. The behavior of the players is terrible. Thier treatment of the refs is disgusting. The players are pressuring the league to sort out the cheating, but won't accept the refs having more power. Whatever idea's are put out there to help the situation are being pulled apart because "Its not fair!". The only solution that will be accepted by the players is one that doesn't yet exist. I am just having trouble working this out. If the players don't want to respect the refs, then how are any rules going to be enforced. Its OK dreaming up fantasy electronic equipment to deal with it, but lets get back to planet earth and deal with the issue with the tools available, without capitulating by saying that cheating is now OK do do so long as it is limited to a certain rate of fire. I still see that as a quitters option. I know there are different points of view on this, and I accept thier merits, but it's not the answer. The can of worms is still open.

Wow, sorry for the long post.

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Originally posted by Missy Q
Wow, sorry for the long post.

Don't be sorry, Missy. That was, without a doubt, along with Shamu's, one of the best posts I've ever seen written. And, like Shamu's, has some brains and experience behind it (not cheap flattery; just the way I see it.)

I have a question, I promise it's not a dig, but did Ed Poorman get any penalty after sticking his finger in the scrutineer's face and saying "Fcuk you!" If not, consistency in the face of such abuse is a good place to start IMO if refs are to be respected (would you see that without impunity in rugby?). The other stuff is vitally important too.

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Missy Q


I'm not saying that's the answer, but an interim to the answer, and yes, I do believe that refs are more than capable of making that decision.


Whatever idea's are put out there to help the situation are being pulled apart because "Its not fair!". The only solution that will be accepted by the players is one that doesn't yet exist.

1. I agree.

2. Not being contrary deliberately here, but do the players not accept the solution that the NXL has adopted? I haven't heard anyone moan about it.

Poll is up - I put a figure on the cost of boards, cos otherwise the distinction would be meaningless. Is it about right?