The NXL & ESPN

[manike]

Originally posted by Intheno
Simon, coudn't let this one go,
the reason the Timmy is the only gun not to be DQ'ed is not because it has always passed the robot. I know of 2 occasions when Timmys have been caught bouncing and a DQ was not assessed. I know the team, I know the ref that caught them, and I know the head ref that let them off due to a personal relationship with the captain of the team. Due to changes in the NPPL I do not see this happening again, but it happened, although you may not be aware....

Sorry, but had to set the record straight on that one...

No problem. I certainly wasn't aware of that, and I was making the comment tongue in cheek because I am very aware that people are cheating with timmy's via debounce settings and eye mode changing. To be honest I don't think there's a gun out there that people aren't cheating with, either in stock form or with aftermarket boards/mods.

Were the timmy's simply bouncing? I think there is a difference between guns bouncing and failing the robot and guns with programmed modes failing the robot...

Glad to hear people won't be able to get away so easily with it next year. Although I also fear next year will be the year of the hidden cheat modes. I think next year it will be far harder to catch the cheats.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by manike
Glad to hear people won't be able to get away so easily with it next year. Although I also fear next year will be the year of the hidden cheat modes. I think next year it will be far harder to catch the cheats.

I fear that we're pulling way off topic and maybe yet another thread needs to be started on the illegal gun issue.

But, since you seem to be here...

What would you think about the following program?

¤ cap the rate of fire at 15 BPS (unless there is a justifiable better number)
¤ maintain the semiauto rule
¤ monitor the BPS with a ball-count device (like NXL)
¤ monitor the velocity with a hand-held radar speed gun (like NXL)
¤ monitor turbo modes with a robot
¤ phase in severe penalties for violations

Since there are many finger/trigger combinations that can shoot 15 BPS then cheater boards would be much less desirable. In addition to the instrument monitoring refs could simply look and ensure that players are indeed pulling the triggers and that shots aren't being discharged after trigger released.

Any major holes in this approach?

Steve

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
What would you think about the following program?

I think if you could do this one

Originally posted by Wadidiz
¤ maintain the semiauto rule

That everything else would be irrelevant. But you can't even do that currently.

If you can't do that one but want a 15bps limit then you might as well allow the stupid NXL rule.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
¤ monitor the velocity with a hand-held radar speed gun (like NXL)

Great idea.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
¤ monitor turbo modes with a robot

You have less hope than a snowball in hell.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
¤ phase in severe penalties for violations

Isn't that in existance anyway? Has it been enforced properly?...

Originally posted by Wadidiz
Since there are many finger/trigger combinations that can shoot 15 BPS then cheater boards would be much less desirable.

riiiiiigggggghhhhttttt.... So the NXL doesn't need assistance to maintain 15bps in the NXL huh? People will just have cheater boards to get to 15bps more easily and off the break easily.

I just tested myself (about 30 mins ago) with a legal switch on a CRO and can hit 18 activations per second of time. That's over a full second, some of those activations are close enought to gether to give a much higher rof. But I've practised long and hard and shoot funny to do it.

If you cap a board at 15bps, but maintain semi auto activations the ACTUAL rof I could achieve would be much, much lower. Or you will get a queue effect and shots after people have finished pulling the trigger possibly...

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
In addition to the instrument monitoring refs could simply look and ensure that players are indeed pulling the triggers and that shots aren't being discharged after trigger released.

Any major holes in this approach?

Steve

Lots of holes.

So what you are suggesting is allowing hidden cheater modes as long as the judge can get them to only fire one shot at a time, it looks like the player is shooting the gun while it is turboing, and the velocity stays safe and rof never goes over 15bps.

The only difference to what we have now is a cap on the rof. Everything else above is pretty much what was going on at World Cup.

We might as well not cap it but allow everything else, and keep the status quo.

If you can't enforce current rules do you think we can enforce new ones?

I suggest, we allow and ensure semi auto to any human test on the first few shots (no light bouncy triggers), as long as your fingers are drumming it can do what it likes, and we keep the velocity safe. I think that's as much as you can hope to enforce.

It would be safer, there would be less accidental discharges and you aren't making rules you can't enforce.

As long as no human or robot can legitimately detect an extra shot (i.e. hid it from the authorities) then what else can we do? We can't stop the cheats that's for sure.

Time to start a new thread.... Seeya in speak your brains...

 

[manike]

My suggestions for fairest and safest gun control are here... let's hear what people think...

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38780

 

[Intheno]

new rules are not the answer. Enforcing the current rules has to come first. If it is not possible for refs to enforce current rules why would it make sense to bring in more. The education of refs in the rules, and the policing of said refs to make sure they are being enforced s the first easy step (this is not meant as an insult to refs, merely an observation that for every good ref there are 2 that are not good.

I do have a couple of idea's though:

Companies who make products designed to hide cheats should have every one of thier products banned from the league. Anyone using that product is DQ'ed. This introduces a check at the manufacturers level, instead of those guys being immune to 'prosecution'

Scalp one or 2 top teams. The refs should be actively looking to DQ top teams. If the best players cheat it becomes cool. **** runs downhill. Stop the role models and you will stop the rot.
Find out what the cheat codes are for thier guns.
Imagine Infamous, Dynasty, Arsenal, Trauma or XSV being DQ'ed. Its a big deal right?
Who really notices when some poor little novice team gets banned, lets get some big scalps. Instead of cutting the big teams more slack, cut them less slack, they ARE supposed to be Professional, right?
Why is it cool to keep cheating secret?
Why is it cool to 'get away with it'?
What is cool about deliberately cheating the refs, and then criticising them for missing the call you wanted them to make?

just my 10c

 

[manike]

Awesome post. Agree completely and utterly with this bit.

Originally posted by Intheno
new rules are not the answer. Enforcing the current rules has to come first. If it is not possible for refs to enforce current rules why would it make sense to bring in more. The education of refs in the rules, and the policing of said refs to make sure they are being enforced s the first easy step (this is not meant as an insult to refs, merely an observation that for every good ref there are 2 that are not good.

I like this next bit but see some difficulties. You would need to be able to prove the intent in a court of law or face some pretty hefty lawsuits...

Originally posted by Intheno
Companies who make products designed to hide cheats should have every one of thier products banned from the league. Anyone using that product is DQ'ed. This introduces a check at the manufacturers level, instead of those guys being immune to 'prosecution'

Also what consitutes cheating? Is adjustable debounce and software that queue's shots cheating? Not always, but it definitely can be at the same time.

Originally posted by Intheno
Scalp one or 2 top teams. The refs should be actively looking to DQ top teams. If the best players cheat it becomes cool. **** runs downhill. Stop the role models and you will stop the rot.
Find out what the cheat codes are for thier guns.
Imagine Infamous, Dynasty, Arsenal, Trauma or XSV being DQ'ed. Its a big deal right?
Who really notices when some poor little novice team gets banned, lets get some big scalps. Instead of cutting the big teams more slack, cut them less slack, they ARE supposed to be Professional, right?
Why is it cool to keep cheating secret?
Why is it cool to 'get away with it'?
What is cool about deliberately cheating the refs, and then criticising them for missing the call you wanted them to make?

Great point. As far as I see it the cheating software has definitely come from the top down, especially the hidden cheats.

Now if anyone's a candidate for manditory stock board swap outs before they play it should be the top end pro teams... How about we try it for one event and see how much whining happens. I wonder why they would whine at having their boards swapped for stock OEM ones?...

 

[Furby]

Originally posted by Wadidiz


It could have been me or my colleagues who said "nobody can shoot that fast!" And we were right.

STeve [/B]

Unless you were on the Shocktech field, and unless you're old and have a distinct lack of personality, it wasn't you. In the course of conversation with people around the venue, the mention of the Shocktech field brought a knowing nod and something along the lines of "Oh yeah... those guys...everyone's bitching about them."

By contrast, the refs on the Smart Parts X-Ball field near the ghetto were professional as hell, and didn't lack for personality at all...funny bunch! The field ultimate was English, which speaks well for English refs.

And I believe you're right, Baca...we're on the same band, just a different frequency.

In the end the issue wasn't so much illegal markers as it was an issue of training refs properly, and teaching them what calls they could and could not make. My marker made it past the chrono/bounce ref with barely a raised eyebrow on his part, which follows given the very conservative settings I was using. Given my very public stance on cheating markers, it'd be the height of hypocrisy for me to field a marker that was illegal. Unfortunately for me, the current system has no way of proving a marker is illegal, other than the somewhat sketchy 'expertise' of a field ref. The issue isn't the rules, the issue is informing the officials of them and ensuring that they're enforced properly.

Sorry for sounding bitter...even nearly two weeks later I'm angry at the prospect of having my team's reputation along with my own and my sponsor's being sullied by a call that never should have been made. The fact that the call was later reversed is vindicating, but the whole thing has put a pall on me personally within my own team.

On a positive note, it did become perfectly clear to me the necessity of having a robot at my event next year! I will not allow referrees to cost people games without being able to back up their calls with nothing other than arrogance.

EDIT ADDED: Well, Steve is old (and grizzled ) but I don't know which field he was on. Given my personality I will refrain from commenting on Steve's. TFP

 

[TJ Lambini]

unless you're old and have a distinct lack of personality, it wasn't you.

Boom - he shoots, he scores.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Furby
...unless you're old and have a distinct lack of personality, it wasn't you.

Does anybody know what can be done about a distinct lack of personality? I can't do anything about the old thingy.

I was the head ref on the Shocktech field for 5-man and I do remember some "individuals" having a distinct problem with the results of our tests. One excuse, besides being handed the field with 5 refs 5 minutes before game start, was that the criteria for what was acceptable or not wasn't clear to me from the start. They definitely allowed more bounce than we do in Millennium.

I think my personality improved as we began to figure things out on the fly and from getting more refs. Day 2 was light years better than Day 1 and most of the teams I talked to thought we were more on top of things than the other fields.

Concerning guns, I don't think anyone got busted that shouldn't have. And we busted perhaps a few more than the other fields, perhaps because we have more experience.

Furby, why don't you tell us more of the situations surrounding your encounters on the Shocktech field so we can learn something.

Steve