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The Millennium Series - what a joke!

NickBrockdorff

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Feb 4, 2012
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Playing devil's advocate for a minute here, but you could turn that around as well. Why don't the tournaments play something that fits on a rental field?
I remember back in the day when there was nothing but woods, even a sh!ts and giggles event would attract an insane amount of teams, some of them straight from the rental fields.

After all, arena type balling was introduced in order to get audiences interested in paintball and since that clearly never happened...
They do Buddha - it's called UWL :)

And I know you prefer the real thing to flag football, so I know you ARE just playing devils advocate ;)

Modern tournament ball is the peak of paintball development.... only, over the years, we forgot to bring along most of our grassroots for the ride, which now essentially means they are playing a whole other game, with no natural transition into our sport.

It's the biggest problem paintball has, and one industry and leagues should do a great deal more to address.

Arguably minimum 80 % of rental customers are never exposed to paintball as we know it...... Fix that, and tournament paintball grows 400 % easy.... Even in dire financial times like these, MS events could have 400 teams competing....... If industry and leagues wake up and realise that, they will stop competing for scraps, and work together to make it happen.
 
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Ainsley

CPPS Chief Chimp
Mar 26, 2008
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Nick, I'm sorry buddy but imo what you just said will never happen.......the industry has no power to "address" people's businesses to better their own. As I've said before, why would a rental field based in a woodland or urban location want to get players involved into the tournament scene? So they can lose their regular customers to the bigger leagues? Even if they had a section of land big or flat enough, even the initial investment is huge and the cost to keep putting it up/down is huge if not in a secure location. This is by no means a criticism on their part. You just have to hope that these businesses make people's days the best they can, and all we have to do is hope that even 5% of those players on that day seeks a further fix and eventually explores the paintball world further.....some of which will spill over into sup'air. More quality local sites should equate to more players in the long term.

Take a karting analogy for example as it's on that same stag do/once a year level as what the general public see paintball as. Setting up races and a progression into formula 4 etc will not suddenly fill up the karting scene due to the cost involved in doing it. It's as simple as volume through the door, hope they enjoy it, and keep your fingers and toes crossed that they want some more....of which some of them will progress further if they make the financial sacrifice to do it. You keep going on about UWL.....again, no body wanted to play it!!! Ged pulled it after poor attendance 2 years running! What's wrong with people just wanting to shoot their friends once a month in the woods and have fun in a non competitive, no finger pointing environment? A higher proportion of people want it like that......which is probably why Airsoft is growing at an exponential rate in comparison.

I know that I still play woods in between playing sup'air as it's a reminder to me to a time when I did start playing. Along the way I might encourage a few players who stand out as "keen" to give sup'air a whirl while I'm there. Maybe that's the problem...there's not enough cross over BACK to the woods from sup'air players, guys and gals who can tell people about another side to our sport as we're all too wrapped up in everything. It's in our hands as players to get out there and spread the word and not the responsibility of some governing body.

We have to accept that the two are almost two different things now and both treat and respect them that way. People's own curiosity will draw them to the sup'air scene via information and information alone.......places like this very forum for example, and the voice of the players. You may keep shaking your finger at the Mills/sup'air, but the single thing that stops 90% of players from playing or quitting our sport is cost. What is the main cost of paintball? Paint. Can prices be reduced......? It's not worth the risk so we keep walking the edge of the knife, gaining a few, losing a few. It will probably always be this way, but information is the key to our survival....it's also a shame that recent events in the UK between some big players (whoever is in the wrong) only helps close off the lines of communication further, as division is not what we need right now :(
 

NickBrockdorff

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Feb 4, 2012
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Ofcourse industry has that power :)

All they need to do, is show each field owner that it can be an additional revenue stream in his business.

I do not believe fields will lose customers by offering them our style of paintball - quite the contrary - and I further believe those that think that way, have a poor grasp of human nature.

Industry can absolutely shape our future, they have done so for 25 years. Our market has never been driven by what the customers "demanded" - and it still isn't. We just happened to land, ass backwards, into a goldmine, some 25 years ago, and since then, everyone has been too afraid to tamper with it, for fear of it running dry.

OFCOURSE there is a large population out there, that would think tournament paintball was a lot of fun, if they were ever exposed to it at their local field, and a good majority of those people, have (clearly) not been turned on by playing "wargames".
This whole notion that we that play tournament paintball are some marginal rare breed, is completely illogical to me, because we have no cultural, religious or moral common ground, so it makes no sense that we are that "special.
My experience is, that when you expose people to the tournament game, a lot of people like it a great deal, and there are sites in every country in Europe already proving that on a daily basis - there just isn't enough of them, by far.

Industry need to educate - first themselves (on business strategy) - and secondly their customers, on how running tournament style fields, can be a very profitable business. This includes industry actually formulating a strategy on where they want to drive their business, over a 5 year period, rather than just doing the same old thing they have been doing for 25 years, with moderate technological advances along the way.

Industry is (mostly, there are exceptances) focussed on "cheaper", "less maintenance", "more durable" and other such terms, when it comes to dealing with field owners, and all those words are connected to maintaining the status quo. Nobody is really trying to help field owners develop their business. It seems all our industry's creativity, is put into high end tournament products, and not into actually developing paintball from grassroots level and up.

It's not just about making products, it is also about actually working with your field owners on conceptualising the whole thing, help them "see the light" as it were.

Nobody does that today, they are too busy selling 50 Tippmanns, 100 goggles, 200 overalls and cheap paint.... while crossing their fingers and hoping the field owners are good enough themselves, to increase their local market, so the manufacturer makes more money next year.

It's an amateurish, shortsighted and insane way of doing business. In any other industry, manufacturers and distributors, are heavily involved with growing business at a local level, because they know they need some form of control over their own future, rather than resting it in the hands of a bunch of random local businessmen.

You ask McKinsey or Accenture to look at the paintball industry, and they would first laugh their asses off, and then ask (pointedly) why industry has not, a long time ago, started developing their business, by helping local field owners understand that:

1. Running tournament fields does not lose you customers. The customers that show up 1-2 times a year for a woodland/scenario outing are primarily sticking with that, and even IF some transition into the sport, you make more money off those individuals, than you would by them attending twice a year. What you do generate, is a whole new customer base, that has not so far been terribly interested in paintball, because they thought it was all woodland wargames.

2. Fields offer up a whole new product in their local market, that by now is pretty much tapped out in terms of new customers. Most older fields these days, are living off repeat business and paintball (as it is presented by that field owner) is no longer something new, that many have not tried. A new product, allows them to generate visits from a lot of former customers, who would not otherwise show up and instead choose other modes of entertainment.

3. Generating tournament players is good business, because it gives you way better coverage on your field, outside the main season and on days and times when "normal rental customers" are rarely there. Tournament players will go play a Tuesday evening i March, or a Saturday morning in January - rentals will not.

4. Running games that create a transition into "sports paintball", allows you to run an on-site shop, which sells equipment to those your field "converts". Just like golf courses make very good business via their pro shops. A smart manufacturer will even give field owners equipment on consignment, so they only pay for it when it is sold.

5. Tournament players give you volume, both on paintballs and on gear, which helps you secure better pricing from your suppliers.

6. When enough fields adopt this business model, industry as a whole grows, which in turn leds to lower prices across the board.

I am tired of hearing people say "the general public only wants woodland games" - because they don't know, it's a convenient assumption, that field owners use to keep from changing anything..... It's like horse carriage makes at the start of the last century, saying "this business has worked for us for 200 years, so why change it?"
 
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Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
They do Buddha - it's called UWL :)

And I know you prefer the real thing to flag football, so I know you ARE just playing devils advocate ;)

Modern tournament ball is the peak of paintball development.... only, over the years, we forgot to bring along most of our grassroots for the ride, which now essentially means they are playing a whole other game, with no natural transition into our sport.

It's the biggest problem paintball has, and one industry and leagues should do a great deal more to address.

Arguably minimum 80 % of rental customers are never exposed to paintball as we know it...... Fix that, and tournament paintball grows 400 % easy.... Even in dire financial times like these, MS events could have 400 teams competing....... If industry and leagues wake up and realise that, they will stop competing for scraps, and work together to make it happen.
The thing is, on the site I used to train at, they had numerous woodsball fields, a speedball field and two full size Sup'Air fields. I have helped the owner by running some rental groups through all these different fields a good number of times. And the reactions to playing the speedball and Sup'Air fields have always been very mixed, ranging from "AWESOME!!!!", through "meh", to not liking it, while every single customer liked the woodsball fields.

I fully agree with you when you say that, with the exception of a few sites, tournament style paintball has very little contact with grassroots paintball. And I also fully agree that having this contact will indeed grow the sport, no question. I've seen it happen numerous times.
But I am also curious to know how much bigger, or smaller the sport would grow if we'd bring tournament style paintball closer to grassroots paintball, rather than the other way round. Whether or not we want to do that is a different question, and I assume the answer is a resounding "no".
 
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Ainsley

CPPS Chief Chimp
Mar 26, 2008
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I agree with you Nick there (and Buddha) that if you could convince more fields to have sup'air fields at their sites then it would definitely be beneficial to business - that is if they had the space. To me, seems almost crazy that if they did have the space, then why their suppliers wouldn't push this. Be interesting to hear from more site owners on their perspective on this.....Furthermore, as you have done, A-ball is also a great way to go to offer cheap training for teams, and to get kids involved at a younger age (pretty sure it's from 10 in the UK) and once paid for, requires little in the way of extra investment. We all know there are sites.....and "sites" however. Those content to churn and burn their customers (not naming a certain uk chain) and those looking at it from a paintballer's perspective as they have a genuine love for our game, and only seek to improve it on all levels.
 

Biscuit

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Mar 21, 2006
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nick,buddha and ainsley you all have good points too your arguements,but if you look at most sites in the UK,can`t say for the rest of europe ,but they don`t even do walk on events.
also most sites that i know in the north of the uk don`t have room or time for a sup-air field. old hyper ball fields would be better as they are permanent and take less time in a day.
the best way would be too go to a league that did a mixture of woodsball and sup-air,this being at entry level.
the equipment should also be restricted at lower levels i:e mech only for beginners and then when you get too a certain level you can have all the gear you want.
Ainsley came up with the thing about carting now if you look at how motor sport does it they make the kit equal in each div then the game is down too skill not the size of your wallet
 

NickBrockdorff

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Feb 4, 2012
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We cannot use our present circumstances as an example.

They are what they are, because of a failed stategy (from the sports point of view), over the last 10-12 years.

A lot of the fields you mention would have a tournament style field today, if, from the outset, the sport had been better at thinking of the need for grass roots development.

We cannot change things over night, but what we can do, is bring about circumstances that makes it an easier choice for fields around the world, to invest in a tournament field, the next time they want to develop their business.
 

Biscuit

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Mar 21, 2006
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nick i think you maybe misunderstanding what i mean,alot of woodland sites have nowhere to put these fields ,if you came too the site i work at it is not a case of size it is a case of the land is not flat anywhere,plus alot of the sites here are not owned by the site,they are the property of things like the forrestry commission.so even if you had a flat area that you could clear of trees the land owner would not let you,as they are working woodlands,which as soon as they cull trees they replace them.it`s more of a land issue in the UK aswell,the sites that can run supair here are.this maybe why europe lags behind say the USA over in the states sites tend to own the land aswell ,here the land tends to be rented due to it costing alot to buy,even operaters the size of delta force in the UK do not own the sites
 
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NickBrockdorff

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I will bet you that there are more open fields than wooded area in the UK, just like in any modern western civilisation.

That site owners don't have an open area right now, is just a consequence of the aforementioned last decade+ of disregard, for bringing field owners along for the ride (the development of the sport).

Site owners open new sites all the time... but one thing is certain.... as long as the sport and industry are run like they are, the incentive to go build tournament style fields, is rather low.

Have nobody ever wondered, why we are always being told that the tournament market is a marginal part of the overall market?

It's insane to me, that tournament promotors and industry just accept this as a fact of life, rather than examining if there is a possibility for a mutually beneficial development in there, by implementing strategies to achieve growth, rather than just beating the same old dog over and over again..
 
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Biscuit

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nick you are going into the area of totally new fields/sites dedicated just too supair and as i have said, this then comes down too land ownership or rental .the cost of this in the UK is huge.
so then we get back too sites that already exist they do not have the space, a lot of the time in which too put a field wether it be size of site or the land it is on