Maybe more A-ball arenas are the key to cheap training for all, encouraging more players (and from a younger age) into the sport and keeping them there thus building their skill sets.......just like you are doing Nick by the looks of it!
The Millennium Series - what a joke!
- Thread starter NickBrockdorff
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My personal opinion on age is, that the tournament players we see today, all stem from the same few fields, that make a concerted effort to run paintball as a sport.... and their biggest market for that, is kids... the younger they can start them, the better for their business, because that broadens their market.
All the while, we see close to no transition from the woodland fields into our sport anymore - which we used to.
As said previously, our sport has evolved too far from what most fields run for their rental customers - or - if you like a different spin - the fields have not evolved with us.
The key to growth for the paintball sport, is not that the global financial crisis ends.... personally, I just think the crisis just happened to coincide with what is our real problem, and emphasize it.
Problem is that today, we just don't create as many new players as we used to, because far fewer fields today are geared for that, compared to back when paintball was booming, and our tournament games moderately resembled what people tried at their local field.
I do not think it is a financial issue in terms of global crisis, I think it is a financial issue in terms of the sport having gotten too expensive at entry level, and the big difference is paint expenditure. We HAVE to make it viable for more fields to run tournament style games for their punters, and the key to that is dropping paint consumption.
All the while, we see close to no transition from the woodland fields into our sport anymore - which we used to.
As said previously, our sport has evolved too far from what most fields run for their rental customers - or - if you like a different spin - the fields have not evolved with us.
The key to growth for the paintball sport, is not that the global financial crisis ends.... personally, I just think the crisis just happened to coincide with what is our real problem, and emphasize it.
Problem is that today, we just don't create as many new players as we used to, because far fewer fields today are geared for that, compared to back when paintball was booming, and our tournament games moderately resembled what people tried at their local field.
I do not think it is a financial issue in terms of global crisis, I think it is a financial issue in terms of the sport having gotten too expensive at entry level, and the big difference is paint expenditure. We HAVE to make it viable for more fields to run tournament style games for their punters, and the key to that is dropping paint consumption.
Ah but Ainsley, we are coming at this issue from different viewpoints.
You are talking about your team and MS events.
I am talking about revitalising the core (the rental fields)
If we fix the core, everything else will fall into place by itself..... that is my theory.
However, and this is the most important part, it will not revitalize itself.
The MS, being the major league in Europe, is struggling because it is focussing narrowly at their current customer base, instead of thinking about how to grow their business 2- 4- 6 years from now.
To quote what was said to Kevin Costner: "If you build it, they will come"
This sport has a lot of trickle down effect, like any sports industry: What the MS does, becomes a sought after product in the local markets (countries), and what regional and local leagues there do, become sought after at local fields.... or so it works in "normal markets"
Only, it does not in paintball, because our "guiding star" is perpetuating a business model, that has little to no thought about the base, so the trickle down effect stops at the few tournament focussed field owners in each country, and goes no further.... and most field owners actually work dilligently to keep information about "sports paintball" away from their customers, because they cannot offer them the product.
It would be like Premier League football being played with jetpacks in special arenas with a vacuum.... attendance would stay the same in clubs that "only" had grass pitch and players moving under the force of their own two legs.... but none of them would transition into Premier League... instead they would form their own league (see "UWL") - yeah, I know, a pretty extreme example - but it's just to drive the point home.
My point is, if the MS had a guiding principle, that what they do should also grow the sport at grassroot level, then we would see a development that can rival 1995, instead of running in circles about the increasingly diminished current market.
You are talking about your team and MS events.
I am talking about revitalising the core (the rental fields)
If we fix the core, everything else will fall into place by itself..... that is my theory.
However, and this is the most important part, it will not revitalize itself.
The MS, being the major league in Europe, is struggling because it is focussing narrowly at their current customer base, instead of thinking about how to grow their business 2- 4- 6 years from now.
To quote what was said to Kevin Costner: "If you build it, they will come"
This sport has a lot of trickle down effect, like any sports industry: What the MS does, becomes a sought after product in the local markets (countries), and what regional and local leagues there do, become sought after at local fields.... or so it works in "normal markets"
Only, it does not in paintball, because our "guiding star" is perpetuating a business model, that has little to no thought about the base, so the trickle down effect stops at the few tournament focussed field owners in each country, and goes no further.... and most field owners actually work dilligently to keep information about "sports paintball" away from their customers, because they cannot offer them the product.
It would be like Premier League football being played with jetpacks in special arenas with a vacuum.... attendance would stay the same in clubs that "only" had grass pitch and players moving under the force of their own two legs.... but none of them would transition into Premier League... instead they would form their own league (see "UWL") - yeah, I know, a pretty extreme example - but it's just to drive the point home.
My point is, if the MS had a guiding principle, that what they do should also grow the sport at grassroot level, then we would see a development that can rival 1995, instead of running in circles about the increasingly diminished current market.
Actually, we're not.....I brought up the team more than anything to highlight the ages that play in my team.....I went on to talk about our angle on mills to show the motivation behind those players to offer an insight. Putting my team aside, I'm looking at things from the interest of players as a whole and the overall benefit of knowing these players rather than second guessing them for the good of the sport. You mention UWL. Ged Green tried to get UWL running in the UK about 3 years ago. Our team entered it with around 8 others in the first year. Despite much good publicity from ourselves and others, the following year attendance was even less, leaving Ged no choice but to cancel it last season. What does that tell us? It says to me that woodland players are not all about the competition. Much like airsoft (which I also play) there is no set winner or loser as such on the day, but everyone just shoots a few people, then goes home happy. Do they have the right idea as airsoft is now growing at a far greater curve than paintball? Maybe so.....
To get back on topic, bunker upgrades. Do you really see a new snake bunker kit being the future downfall of the sport? Like it or not, sup'air holds the reigns to the sport as we now know it, so to bite the hand that feeds you seems rather a knee jerk reaction does it not? As a site owner you have to listen to your player base and I believe that the players want changes to fields every 2 years or the game simply becomes monotonous. If you see the "core" as the rental fields, and hoping that the mills dropping the paint BPS and therefore usage on the day as key to make it more affordable, I can't see many companies following suit as that's their main source of income and now drives the industry as we know it. Has anyone ever dared tipped those scales though to see if that fine balance of players vs paint cost does actually make a difference? As I said above, the only way I can see training becoming cheap and affordable is by more A-ball sites being created, as you appear to have done yourself. This way teams can train regularly and cheaply. The cheaper it is, the more people will play....that's more often than not why bigger teams survive and small ones get ripped apart. People go to a "safe heaven" for cheaper ball....and at most levels of play.
Enjoying this conversation all the same btw
To get back on topic, bunker upgrades. Do you really see a new snake bunker kit being the future downfall of the sport? Like it or not, sup'air holds the reigns to the sport as we now know it, so to bite the hand that feeds you seems rather a knee jerk reaction does it not? As a site owner you have to listen to your player base and I believe that the players want changes to fields every 2 years or the game simply becomes monotonous. If you see the "core" as the rental fields, and hoping that the mills dropping the paint BPS and therefore usage on the day as key to make it more affordable, I can't see many companies following suit as that's their main source of income and now drives the industry as we know it. Has anyone ever dared tipped those scales though to see if that fine balance of players vs paint cost does actually make a difference? As I said above, the only way I can see training becoming cheap and affordable is by more A-ball sites being created, as you appear to have done yourself. This way teams can train regularly and cheaply. The cheaper it is, the more people will play....that's more often than not why bigger teams survive and small ones get ripped apart. People go to a "safe heaven" for cheaper ball....and at most levels of play.
Enjoying this conversation all the same btw
good distillation of your points Nick ,agree/disagree on any of them if you will but those are the tipping points for this sport. My tuppence worth on age is ,when you older players started ,were you in that teen group starting ,like today,s ? Is it that the fallout of older players being greater ,is giving it that younger look? If finance,the lady wife and mortage plus kids are the reason for departing then bringing the old Car Wash bunker over from the states wouldnt keep older players.You could hide a 10man behind them! All these threads seem to skirt that thin line between players budget and industry profit and the inevitable impact of one on the other. Cant speak for the midlands but there was a big turnout at first Masters and Super5,s seemed good Yorkie,s walk on training seems busy . So who knows green shoots perhaps ?? Certainly seen new kids playin about .
Sho ...'green shoots'?
I'd love to confirm that, I really would and maybe you guys will have a much better take on that than myself.
One thing I have noticed is the increasing number of people we have on our forum.
Now, some of that increase is down to these bot things whatever the fuhk they are but on closer analysis there is a definite increase on our member and guest base independent of the bot thingies.
And that increase is about 15-20% which is surprising bearing in mind the state of our tourney scene; the only thing I can think of is the 'number of guest' increase is down to rec/scenario guys but unless I do a lot more analysis then it's still a guess.
I'd love to confirm that, I really would and maybe you guys will have a much better take on that than myself.
One thing I have noticed is the increasing number of people we have on our forum.
Now, some of that increase is down to these bot things whatever the fuhk they are but on closer analysis there is a definite increase on our member and guest base independent of the bot thingies.
And that increase is about 15-20% which is surprising bearing in mind the state of our tourney scene; the only thing I can think of is the 'number of guest' increase is down to rec/scenario guys but unless I do a lot more analysis then it's still a guess.
Well, a new snake kit does not - in itself - destroy the sport.... it's just indicative of a trend that I dislike
As for growth, I too feel we will see growth overall this year, seems attendance is up everywhere..... and the danger is, we then all think everything is fine (sigh of relief, the downturn has stopped, and all that), and forget that paintball could be so much bigger than it ever were, if things were run with a cohesive top to bottom strategy for growing the sport.
As for growth, I too feel we will see growth overall this year, seems attendance is up everywhere..... and the danger is, we then all think everything is fine (sigh of relief, the downturn has stopped, and all that), and forget that paintball could be so much bigger than it ever were, if things were run with a cohesive top to bottom strategy for growing the sport.
This is far less of a joke than the inflatable netting fiasco, billed as 'the future' and now having seemingly disappeared without a trace!
The new bunkers look to be far less playable in the traditional sense than those before, but, each new 'upgrade' has brought in new props that are harder to play than the outgoing ones, and players have adapted to these.
We have yet to see a field design with these incorporated, that will be their test.
Nick, you have some ideas that may or may not work, I still believe that the change has to come from domestic regional and national organisers not blindly following the MS, but the format the MS currently has works as a major league better than any other, IMHO.
Domestic leagues should, I believe, introduce formats that are more accessible to newer, less experienced players leading to progression, compare it to motorsports, where at a national level you have something like Formula Renault, then a European Formula 3 series and an international Formula One series, if you get my drift. Some of the changes you propose may have some credence in such a system.
There is no reason, why a body like the EPBF, working with national bodies, could not instigate something like this!
The new bunkers look to be far less playable in the traditional sense than those before, but, each new 'upgrade' has brought in new props that are harder to play than the outgoing ones, and players have adapted to these.
We have yet to see a field design with these incorporated, that will be their test.
Nick, you have some ideas that may or may not work, I still believe that the change has to come from domestic regional and national organisers not blindly following the MS, but the format the MS currently has works as a major league better than any other, IMHO.
Domestic leagues should, I believe, introduce formats that are more accessible to newer, less experienced players leading to progression, compare it to motorsports, where at a national level you have something like Formula Renault, then a European Formula 3 series and an international Formula One series, if you get my drift. Some of the changes you propose may have some credence in such a system.
There is no reason, why a body like the EPBF, working with national bodies, could not instigate something like this!
Oh wow, there are a few things I need to address:
The MS clearly have the best Major League format of all! - I fully agree with that - and it needs no changing (except for ROF).
That's not what I want rentals to play - Xball - that would never work.....
I'm saying rental fields should play 5man, on MS size airball fields!
And the key to that happening, is MS having a format (incl. ROF), that works for rentals (financially too), so that there is a natural recognisability between the two.... even if it is watered down from Xball to 5man at rental level.
If you get 3 times as many fields, to expose their customers to airball, we will experience a growth in players of 300 % on the tournament scene!
The EPBF is not real dude - it's a marketing ploy.... to my knowledge, there is no elected board and nobody voted in from the national federations..... at least it was that a few years ago.
The MS clearly have the best Major League format of all! - I fully agree with that - and it needs no changing (except for ROF).
That's not what I want rentals to play - Xball - that would never work.....
I'm saying rental fields should play 5man, on MS size airball fields!
And the key to that happening, is MS having a format (incl. ROF), that works for rentals (financially too), so that there is a natural recognisability between the two.... even if it is watered down from Xball to 5man at rental level.
If you get 3 times as many fields, to expose their customers to airball, we will experience a growth in players of 300 % on the tournament scene!
The EPBF is not real dude
- it's a marketing ploy.... to my knowledge, there is no elected board and nobody voted in from the national federations..... at least it was that a few years ago.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the formats for Divisions 1, 2 & 3, and think that 'watering them down' will alienate the teams that are playing them already, There is quite a gap between even the average D3 player and a typical rental player. I do think, however; that there is need for a progressive system of formats, possibly with less players fielded, (3-man/5-man) on reduced size pitches and with a reduced rate of fire!
In my post I deliberately wrote 'like' the EPBF, only, I omitted the inverted commas.
In my post I deliberately wrote 'like' the EPBF, only, I omitted the inverted commas.
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