The Glory Boy Sweepstakes

[Baca Loco]

No animosity here, CD

Originally posted by Missy Q
1--Am I in favor of it? Sure, but I don't have that much of an interest in it, and therin lies the problem.

2--I believe that if 4 euro-teams went to a euro league, and one remained behind (eg JD), that JD would benefit by better competition and playing in a league with a higher skill-level, thus making them a stronger team through playing stronger opposition (I see this particular theory as valid). When these teams met I think JD would win.

3--Let me help you out. Dynasty, XSV and Arsenal have all travelled to Europe this year, as have several hired US guns. I think the Bushwackers made it over too. They also took the money home, which was my point...

4--How can I think this? Well, I suppose it is based on talking to the captains, asking what they believe the value of thier teams to be, knowing about a deal currently in the offing, and basically having an interest in such things to the extent where I enjoy placing estimated (yet reasonably informed) values on the spots. You may have different figures in your head, but that would be what 'you' think, and therefore not relevant to your question.

5--No, thats not what I mean. What I mean is that if the industry is in a slump, and an investor believed that it was going to recover, then buying now would be a good idea. The same way that buying real estate in Beruit is a clever idea right now. And no, I am not making a direct comparison between the NPPL and the ongoing middle eastern crisis

6--If they did, then sure. My doubts hinge on the willingness of the US teams to do so.

7--and yet you still asked question number 6....

This much I knew already. You have the advantage of being better informed than Nick, and in having English as your first language, however, I haven't ducked a question, so the snyde stuff can take a back seat.

Nick Sucks!

1--glad to see such collegiality though I'm not sure whether your interest matters if the teams are the ones opting for that course.

2--if the advantage is purely competitive then it would be negated if those Euro squads could play the same or similar teams elsewhere, yes? And as you prefaced this presumed advantage with-- I believe --someone else might reasonable hold a different view and not necessarily be all that disadvantaged, yes?

3--True but my point is the trend isn't towards US teams coming to Euroland--just the oposite in fact--and they certainly don't do it for the wads of cash they can win.

4--I'm actually a little more hard-headed about this sort of thing apparently as it seems to me none of the spots are worth more than anybody is willing to pay for one and in your own example there currently is a fairly wide gulf between supposed value and possible offer. I can post my gun on ebay for $1000 but if no one bids above $350 I think it's safe to say my gun ain't worth $1000.

5--not an unreasonable position but it seemed to me the premise implied some interest in selling on the part of the holders of the 4 or 5 spots as otherwise how would this clever investor have a chance to acquire the spots?

6--You said the RL was equally talented so my questions were a follow up on that claim. You can't have it both ways as a matter of simple logic.

7--because your reasoning was defective, doh. And the original position of mine you were commenting on essentially pitted American talent vs. Russian training.

Um, in Harlem it's "snide" and I've tried the other way. When I do I seldom get a direct answer so I figure this way I have some fun.

 

[Robbo]

........Chomp.....chomp.....Debs pass the Coke please love.........cheers.......sluuuurp

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

TJ

Missy - or anyone else - can post what they want.

The rest of your post kinda suggests that the rule does not apply to me??

Or - am I entitled to say where an anonymous poster works - when I think it has relevance to the content of his post??

Nick

 

[Missy Q]

OK, Loco -

1. I don't think its that interesting in the context I have heard, sorry. If I don't think it's that interesting, I doubt the US will find it at all interesting. If it ain't that interesting, it can't hope to get the kind of support it would require to make it interesting, or even just successful. If someone can tell me why it would get such support, I would happily admit that it was I alone that found it uninteresting. If I had a choice between going to a Euro NPPL event and a Euro Only league, I would go NPPL, but thats just my opinion.

2. That was my point. The use of 'I believe' was deliberate. I do not make sweeping statements and claim them to be factual when they are merely my opinion. I leave that to others.

3. The Trend is that the US teams look to see who's playing, If Dynasty or XSV are there they don't bother going. If they were not there, you would see different teams travel. If 1st is barely covering costs, then second or third are just not worth it. Back in the day when anyone could win it, there was more interest. There was also only one major league in the US at that time. The fact remains that the US teams come and steal. Unless you disagree with that?

4. I think my point was quite clear. I do understand the difference between value and worth. I also understand market forces. Your little gun example is totally correct, but has little to do with the point other than presumably a lame attempt to make an example childish enough for me to understand. While this may make you smile and give you warmth, I am sure you realise that I understand what you meant in the first place. Spots are indeed worth what people will pay for them. Is an NXL spot then worth 200g? No, huh?
To buy a spot when people don't think they can afford to run a team next year due to lower sponsorships, due in turn to a general downturn in the industry, as an investment, is not a ridiculous idea, in fact its what Tom Fore seems to be doing at the moment. Having more teams in the 18 is a definite advantage. The numbers I quoted were part estimation on my part, and part actual numbers that - oh, hold on a moment, I would be remiss to mention where, as that would be offensive to Nick, who sucks.

5. By being a business savvy investor who can read the signs and recognise an opportunity.
You may believe that you are the only person to have noticed that the Euro and lower ranked teams in the 18 may be wondering if they are out of thier depth, both financially and in playing ability, but you would be alarmed to hear that others also noticed. You think those people, if they were interested in a spot, would wait for the owner of the spot to announce a sale, or maybe wait to be called about it (I really shouldn't have to type all this, its obvious)?

6. I said you underestimated the Russian Talent pool, meaning just that. Yes, I do think the yanks have more talent generally than European teams, but the Russkies have plenty too. They also have the pick of Europe.

Nick - So glad I don't have to type as much for your post -

You Suck Nick!!

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Missy

Jeeeezuz - I was most definitely not looking for a lengthy argument - but ok - I'll go along with you.

You contradict yourself. Nexus players and Joy players will continue to play in the NPPL if their tams did not. Any other outstanding new player will be noticed, and as you pointed out, will jump at the chance of playing with the big boys.

My question then is, why they have not already been picked up by US teams?

I am careful not to promote the company I work for Nick. Your poor understanding of the PP/WDP relationship is preventing you from making a sensible comment about it. If you want to sound knowledgable, stick to things you know about.

You are reading much too much into the comment about where you work.... I did not have an alterior motive - and you should take it at face value: that when you made educated quesses about the value of an NPPL team, is was relevant to know you work in the sister organisation

thats your point? Its rubbish! there is much more talent in the US. You could go down to SC Village any given weekend and pick out a team of players (that don't play pro), and have them beat your team 9 times out of 10. There are hundreds of kids trying to get on pro teams. Euro teams would take them all day long. Also, you don't base your budget talk on anything. You just assume that the US teams have a bigger budget. While this may be true in some cases, it is a sweeping and incorrect statement. US teams often have 'benefactors' rather than 'sponsors' that foot the bills, often the team owners/captains. Avalanche don't even have a paint sponsor. They are ranked 3rd, so definitely in the top 5-6 you mention.

You misinterpret what I said. - I did not say there was more talent in Europe (or even as much) - that would be ludicris, as there are so many more players in the US. - I said that European Pro players were not LESS talented than their US counterparts...

So, it was not a statement about quantity, but about potential quality of the best players on our continent.

European pro players get to play paintball a lot less than US pro players, due to financial circumstances..... AND no teams have the luxury of picking players from all over Europe, like the biggest US teams can, because the budget is not there to do it that way.

What my team has got to do with it - I don't know - I'm talking about the scene in general.... but you seem to think I am making excuses for the Ducks - which is most certainly not the case!

Garbage. Firstly you don't know the budget of the top 6. You also presume that all the top 6 have good budgets. You also presume way too much of yourself. If Robbo can't do it in 2 years with the effort he put in, why do you think you can do it in 1, from Denmark, from a standing start. I estimate Robbo's budget to be higher than 2 teams in the top 6 already. This takes you back to talent, which was another of your incorrect generalisations. I also judge Pete's ability to be able to acheive success to be higher than yours, due to his career record. I mean, I know you won that one MS event back in the day, but....

Again, you misinterpret. - I did not say "danish team" - I said European team.
If Pete had the budget to pick the best players on the continent, instead of just the best english ones (not taking anything away from any of the Nexus boys here - just theorizing) - he would be able to do it as well - so would Magued, so would Laurent, and a number of other people - it's not rocket science you know.

Actually I never won an MS event - only got some 2nd place finishes.... but again I don't really see the relevance- managerial skills and player skills are too much different things - otherwise you would be a top player yourself

You are at it again. Take XSV and Dynasty out and look again. Better yet, if you want things to be read as fact, do some research.

Yeah - but you are comparing apples and oranges then.

XSV and Dynastys budgets should be compared to the two best teams in Europe..... while teams further down the pecking order in the NPPL, should be compared to Euro teams in the equivalent position in the rankings.

I answered a question asked by someone who knew who I was. I answered honestly. I won't have my integrity challenged by you Nick. You can apologise if you wish. If you don't I will continue to hold you in the lowest regard.
Look up 'Franchise'. Note the differences.

Yeah - but you answered it in a public forum - where loads of people do not know your qualifications for making that statement.... which should be relevant.

If you did not think about that you were writing anonymously and the comment about team value was just made in passing, I agree I should appologise for challenging your integrity.... because then you would not have had an alterior motive with the comments.

I do know what "franchise" means - which is why I put it in quatation marks, for lack of a better word.... maybe you can reply to this post in danish, and I'll correct your choice of words?

Wrong. They have been experimenting with other players all season and used Fabrice to great effect in Chicago.

So - do you think this change in strategy coincides with them being the No. 1 team in the NXL - or is it of no consequence?

What European team has more experience than these guys? They have plenty of event experience. They played NPPL events, Millennium events and PSP events. They travelled to the US and scrimmaged against other Pro teams and I think their preparation for the NXL was superior to any other team. If you think the Russians have a disadvantage due to experience you are wrong. I don't recognise half the players in the NXL anymore. The Russian players are comparative veterans.

If you are right, why do you think Sergey has changed his strategy, and started going after experienced Pros, instead of continuing to pick up inexperienced kids?

Incidentally - you may think my point about game experience is crap - but Sergey actually made that comment himself, a little under a year ago, at the Campaign Cup... but hey - maybe he should hire you to manage RL?

Back that up. In fact, don't bother, you can't, and nor could anyone else. Getting Dynasty to change their game and play the russian system could even do more harm than good. Fact is no-one knows, so no-one can make the 'statement' you made.

So - what in your mind is "the russian system"?

- Practising 5 days every week with the whole team?
- Drilling techniques till you're blue in the face?
- Physical workout?
- Professional management, dietrist and trainers?

Oh - NOW I see - that would REALLY **** up everything for Dynasty

"back it up"? - don't be stupid - you know as well as anyone else reading the statement, that is is an example made to prove a point - not something that would come to pass in real life.

Another crap point. However, if by 'catching up fast' you mean 'kicking the crap out of people and way ahead of the pack'. then you are totally correct.

Well ok - I guess you know better than Sergey where RL has their one weakness - sorry for presuming he would be better able to run his team than you.

You evidently did not note the smiley after the "catching up" comment.... or maybe you just don't have a sense of humour??

Happy now?

Not really.... get me that big WDP budget, and we'll talk about being happy

Nick - You suck

You must be confusing me with your boyfriend ???



Nick

 

[Missy Q]

you see, this is why it's no fun arguing with you, you just keep asking the same stuff over and over.

lets put a few things to rest:

Nick said: My question then is, why they have not already been picked up by US teams?

Look up at Duffy's post. He answes that one for you. He's right, in case you didn't think so...

Nick then said: You are reading much too much into the comment about where you work.... I did not have an alterior motive - and you should take it at face value: that when you made educated quesses about the value of an NPPL team, is was relevant to know you work in the sister organisation

No Nick, it is not particularly relevant at all. Stick to the stuff you know about. PP/WDP does not fall into that category. Choose your own ground Nick, don't come looking for a scrap on land I have stood on for 18 years. You can't win that. Your comments about my motives were offensive, not to mention wrong, and I am still waiting for that apology.

Nick blubbered: - Again, you misinterpret. - I did not say "danish team" - I said European team.
If Pete had the budget to pick the best players on the continent, instead of just the best english ones (not taking anything away from any of the Nexus boys here - just theorizing) - he would be able to do it as well - so would Magued, so would Laurent, and a number of other people - it's not rocket science you know.

OK, now I understand you are Danish, and I respect your English skills, but I don't just go around mis-interpreting things. Either you didn't mean what you wrote, in which case say so, or you now realise tyou were wrong, in which case just say I misinterpreted you......
And no, I don't think you could do it. There, I said it.
And the Russian pretty much have the pick of Europe, or 'the continent', already.

Nick went on:- Actually I never won an MS event - only got some 2nd place finishes.... but again I don't really see the relevance- managerial skills and player skills are too much different things - otherwise you would be a top player yourself

FYI - My own personal record against the Ducks is 1-0 (to me), and that was when you could claim to be good. But thats not important. Look at Football, the successful managers generally come from good playing stock. A team will respect a coach more if they know he has been there and done it. Therefore I dispute your point.

Nick decided to say: - Yeah - but you are comparing apples and oranges then.
XSV and Dynastys budgets should be compared to the two best teams in Europe..... while teams further down the pecking order in the NPPL, should be compared to Euro teams in the equivalent position in the rankings.

It was your comparison Nick, you said the 'top 5 or 6'. I took this to be what you meant. if you had said 'Top 2', you would have meant something different...

Nick then said: Yeah - but you answered it in a public forum - where loads of people do not know your qualifications for making that statement.... which should be relevant.
If you did not think about that you were writing anonymously and the comment about team value was just made in passing, I agree I should appologise for challenging your integrity.... because then your would not have had an alterior motive with the comments.

what is my alterior motive Nick? Thats 2 you owe me. Insult me again and an apology won't get you out of it.
I have no motive. I was asked a question. I am more qualified to answer it than you are, as you say above, and yet you don't think I should be allowed to. You Nick, have decided to 'bust my identity'. WTF is your problem with my wanting to post on here and answer questions asked of me? The fact that you admit challenging my integrity does not escape me either. Pull up a post when I have abused my position, other than to leak news to you guys that I thought you might wish to discuss. I spilled the Lasoya beans 1 month ahead of time, is that an abuse of position?

You suck
You suck
You suck

and as for the boyfriend joke, you get that out of the 1994 book of insults? You moron!

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Missy Q
OK, Loco -

1. I don't think its that interesting in the context I have heard, sorry. If I don't think it's that interesting, I doubt the US will find it at all interesting. If it ain't that interesting, it can't hope to get the kind of support it would require to make it interesting, or even just successful. If someone can tell me why it would get such support, I would happily admit that it was I alone that found it uninteresting. If I had a choice between going to a Euro NPPL event and a Euro Only league, I would go NPPL, but thats just my opinion.

2. That was my point. The use of 'I believe' was deliberate. I do not make sweeping statements and claim them to be factual when they are merely my opinion. I leave that to others.

3. The Trend is that the US teams look to see who's playing, If Dynasty or XSV are there they don't bother going. If they were not there, you would see different teams travel. If 1st is barely covering costs, then second or third are just not worth it. Back in the day when anyone could win it, there was more interest. There was also only one major league in the US at that time. The fact remains that the US teams come and steal. Unless you disagree with that?

4. I think my point was quite clear. I do understand the difference between value and worth. I also understand market forces. Your little gun example is totally correct, but has little to do with the point other than presumably a lame attempt to make an example childish enough for me to understand. While this may make you smile and give you warmth, I am sure you realise that I understand what you meant in the first place. Spots are indeed worth what people will pay for them. Is an NXL spot then worth 200g? No, huh?

5--To buy a spot when people don't think they can afford to run a team next year due to lower sponsorships, due in turn to a general downturn in the industry, as an investment, is not a ridiculous idea, in fact its what Tom Fore seems to be doing at the moment. Having more teams in the 18 is a definite advantage. The numbers I quoted were part estimation on my part, and part actual numbers that - oh, hold on a moment, I would be remiss to mention where, as that would be offensive to Nick, who sucks.

By being a business savvy investor who can read the signs and recognise an opportunity.
You may believe that you are the only person to have noticed that the Euro and lower ranked teams in the 18 may be wondering if they are out of thier depth, both financially and in playing ability, but you would be alarmed to hear that others also noticed. You think those people, if they were interested in a spot, would wait for the owner of the spot to announce a sale, or maybe wait to be called about it (I really shouldn't have to type all this, its obvious)?

6. I said you underestimated the Russian Talent pool, meaning just that. Yes, I do think the yanks have more talent generally than European teams, but the Russkies have plenty too. They also have the pick of Europe.

Nick - So glad I don't have to type as much for your post -

You Suck Nick!!

You're sounding a tad testy, Missy. Perhaps yoga or meditation? Maybe Pilates. I hear that's all the rage.

1--I quite agree that the Euros would prefer some ultimate circumstance wherein the two sides were able to compete but otherwise I think you're slip is showing (if I may use a euphemism) in making it an either or proposition. Obviously you know more about that likelihood than I and others certainly know more of what the Euroteams would like to do but in the end they may have little alternative but to opt for what they can do.

2--fair enough. I guess I was expecting when you chose to claim general advantages, in your opinion, there would be actual advantages that you had in mind--beyond your clarification, that is.

3--don't think it's quite that simple (but, hey, it could be.) Peeps may be "afraid" of XSV now but they certainly weren't earlier in the year and neither Dynasty or XSV have made the Euro trips of recent legs because of the money--nor, IMO, did the majority of teams that used to come to Euroland fairly regularly. But who really cares?

4--actually I used the gun example to make it easy for the casual reader who mightn't either be as familiar with what we's talking about nor much care.

5--in which case the savvy investor needs a team too and the calculation he/she has the resources to weather the temporary tightening. And the savvy investor probably needs something slightly more concrete than was waved in front of the NXL investors, for example, to offer proof of value or potential at least. I'm not saying such doesn't exist only that I'm not privy to it. And if I were a really really savvy investor I might press to see what concessions I might get from the league to enhance the value of my potential investments particularly if I became a large scale investor or was aware of a potentially significant weakness in the league, like a number of teams struggling to maintain their commitment. Not really disagreeing with you--just some additional thoughts.

6--and you said they were equally talented. By making that claim you are necessarily minimizing the impact of the training whether you meant to or not.

What's Nick got to do with this?

 

[Missy Q]

You're sounding a tad testy, Missy. Perhaps yoga or meditation? Maybe Pilates. I hear that's all the rage.

I've had my integrity questioned. Its natural. And I prefer hitting the bag to all that namby pamby stuff, thanks very much.

I think we can agree to disagree, or even agree in some cases, on most of the rest. I had little to add, but:


1. I believe they are going to have a choice next year, yes.

2. By advantage, I meant a competitive advantage. What advantages were you expecting me to elaborate on? In fact, don't bother, as at least now you know what I meant.

3. Have a European team won an event on European soil this year? Last year? I don't remember to be honest, but I doubt it happened unless you count that one the Russians won. How many teams does not really matter (not to me anyway), fact is they come and steal (is this the 3rd time I wrote this?). If a Euro league allowed US teams to play, they would still steal and it would make a mockery of the Euro league. If you don't allow them you give up that attraction. Its a tough choice.

5. Goes without saying that investors don't just spend money. That would make a mockery of the word 'investment'.

6. I concede that I am not an expert on how the Russians do thier training. But then neither are you or Nick, so maybe we should all stop pretending.

What's Nick got to do with this?

He sucks, thats what he has to do with it. You dig?

 

[shamu]

Vacation-ball

Return on investment isn't always monetary. Along with possible monetary rewards, the trip to europe represents a "perk" to many of the players ("dude, we got drunk in amsterdam and played ball!"), which can be an effective tool in recruiting/maintaining talent.

Non-monetary returns for the "benefactor"/sponsor can include increased presence in the euro market, more media coverage, etc. This goes back to the old "if you build it, they will come" theory of sponsorship, where value is provided through exposure not just through prize winnings. This might be going away in the future, but it's still a factor now.

2 quick comments:
- talent: captains will recruit talent wherever they find it. Max and Alex GZ? Robbo? There have been numerous examples of europeans playing for US teams. With the increased participation of euro teams in US events over the past few years, I think some of the allure of playing for a US team has been reduced. If euros stop coming, you'll see top euro players being recruited by US teams.
- Legion: RL not using pros? I remember watching the King of Sweden playing with RL in Chicago and NEO last year.

 

[Baca Loco]

Just an observation

Originally posted by Missy Q
I concede that I am not an expert on how the Russians do thier training. But then neither are you or Nick, so maybe we should all stop pretending.

Gotta say this made me laugh. Nick's got nothing to do with me or the comments I made and the specifics of RL training have nothing to do with the point I was disputing or your consistently illogical responses.