Should Millenium Ban Ramping?

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by shamu
- make sure they know the difference between bounce and ramping software

For purposes of the rules and the mythical notion of semi only what is the practical difference between bounce and ramp in a game play situation?

Tiger jedi--if you want to know how many likely customers do or don't want ramping in your tourney and you're so busy try a Search since we've done this to death in recent months and/or you could use a targeted mailing of your actual participants to see what they want.

 

[HUSH HUSH]

ramp or no ramp it will be a great little tournie as always warren but it unfortunately has got to that stage were you/ leauges can not ban ramp with out forking out for top marshalls and hand held pact chronies

even if every leauge/ tournie in the world returned to semi only some one will always push the boundries..... unfortunate for some but ramp is here to stay unless event organisers fork out for 10 or 14 markers before the game and set the speeds and mode cos thats the only way you will completely stop cheater markers (players)

and not capping the rate of fire at yours may hinder some who cant hit high rates of fire

 

[Robbo]

For my own peace of mind Baca, mainly because I haven't read your take on 'semi' definition, where is the ambiguity in one trigger pull = one shot ?

I am probably a bit behind the times on this one but I am like Warren on this one and I detest ramping especially when it's predicated on the flawed premise of an inabliity to judge.

 

[Smally85]

It seems to me that most players you ask about ramping say that they don't like it but until you can police true semi they would rather use ramp so that the people that do intend to cheat don't get any advantage.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Robbo
For my own peace of mind Baca, mainly because I haven't read your take on 'semi' definition, where is the ambiguity in one trigger pull = one shot ?

Nothing whatsoever ambiguous about one pull=one shot. However, no current electro marker, particularly those most commonly used in the tourney world, actually complies with that definition and anyone who imagines otherwise is engaging in mental circumlocutions worthy of a troupe of Chinese acrobats. As a consequence the notion of semi auto vs. ramping is an argument that doesn't in reality even exist given current marker technology--which is why I asked Whale the question I did.

And for those of you who think experienced officials can fairly distinguish legal from illegal markers during play and make acceptable calls just wait until we start seeing boards that add X random shots on a random X time cycle so that the user is always getting more shots than he/she can pull the trigger but the net result is a marker sounding like it's being pulled "naturally" because it fluctuates ROF. (Assuming of course they aren't already out there. )

btw, Pete, there's lots more of this stuff in the forums on numerous threads from over the last few months. And, my VIEW in PGI 198 bears on the same subject.

 

[shamu]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
For purposes of the rules and the mythical notion of semi only what is the practical difference between bounce and ramp in a game play situation?

From a game play perspective - there's not much difference. Both enable the user to achieve an artificially enhanced rate of fire. Both violate the one shot per pull rule.

The difference is in the intent and ability to catch the violation.

Bounce could be a poorly set up marker (dumbass). Ramping is a mode the marker is set to use (intentional cheat).

A good chrono ref should be able to catch most bounce at the chrono while testing the marker. This should filter the majority of bouncing markers out of gameplay. If the chrono ref passes a bouncing marker, is it the players fault the got on the field or the refs fault for not catching it?

Ramping software is usually designed to avoid detection, e.g., it only kicks in at a certain rate of fire, or deactivates after x seconds of inactivity. This makes it much harder to detect and catch, and is clearly designed to cheat.

Being able to spot a ramping marker can be tough. Being able to catch or reproduce the performance while testing the marker is much more difficult, particularly as software cheats get more complex.

Personally I have no problem with allowing refs to ban players based on field testing of the marker. How well that would go over with players might be another story...

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Warren:

I think you would be hard pressed to find a single paintballer on the face of the earth who prefers ramping, if he is in a situation where he can, with any degree of certainty, expect nobody else to use it either.

We ALL think the skill of pulling the trigger is one that makes the sport harder for the lazy and the untalented, and as such prefers for that divider to be part of the sport (along with the many others).

BUT - unless people can ensure me true semi can be enforced effectively, I prefer a situation where gun cheats are to some extent negated, by everyone being able to shoot fast with ease.

Nick

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

For my own peace of mind Baca, mainly because I haven't read your take on 'semi' definition, where is the ambiguity in one trigger pull = one shot ?

Pete:

Before you can determine if only one shot is fired per trigger pull, you have to define what a trigger pull is, and then be able to ascertain when a pull is made and when it is not .... and that is the whole problem.

For example:

- how long is a trigger pull minimum?
- how long must switch travel be?
- what if a switch is not used in the gun?

(just to mention a few examples off the top of my head)

On some of the newest gun designs the trigger can be tuned so finely, that trigger movement is minute - and a player with finely honed skills could - from only 5 yards away - appear to not be moving his finger(s) at all, while actually shooting true semi.... especially if he is not walking the trigger.

Obviously this example is an extreme - but you have to take that into account when changing the gun rules - unless you are prepared to see a bunch innocents be falsely punished - which I think goes completely against the grain of the reason we want true semi back - that it is a SKILL to be able to fire fast in true semi (you would in fact be punishing the people who are MOST skilled).

Gun design IS moving in a direction where the example will become more and more relevant in the next few years.

Obviously a whole rules complex and set of guidelines for enforcement can be made, to attempt to ensure fair judgement.... but it is far from easy to do - and very far from just saying "one pull - one shot - and let the refs make the calls subjectively".

Especially as long as so many refs are poorly trained and not very knowledgable technically.

The best way forward is still - to me at least - to find some way of allowing refs to quickly and easily read the programming on any gun board - but it will take a lot of work with the industry to get that done.

Nick

 

[Gudmann]

Originally posted by shamu
If the chrono ref passes a bouncing marker, is it the players fault the got on the field or the refs fault for not catching it?

Always the player's fault for having non-regulation equipment.

Doesn't matter if the first level of scrutiny failed to detect it, it doesn't become "sanctioned" after that.

My best
Gudmann Bragi
Reykjavik Paintball Club

 

[tiger jedi]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Warren:

I think you would be hard pressed to find a single paintballer on the face of the earth who prefers ramping, if he is in a situation where he can, with any degree of certainty, expect nobody else to use it either.

We ALL think the skill of pulling the trigger is one that makes the sport harder for the lazy and the untalented, and as such prefers for that divider to be part of the sport (along with the many others).

BUT - unless people can ensure me true semi can be enforced effectively, I prefer a situation where gun cheats are to some extent negated, by everyone being able to shoot fast with ease.

Nick

Hey Nick,

So would you say capping at 15 bps in ramp is any easier or harder to police than True semi? They still have to speak to the industry, they still have to have the techs there to check & set 15 bps per minute, they still have to get gadgets to test speed on the field, they still have to check for major bounce, they still have to check for Breakout Modes etc etc i dont see that as any easier to police in fact they have never made that effort to police true semi have they?

Also now all guns ramp would you say that it makes it easier to detect Full auto Break out modes & Ramping Velocity modes, would you say since 15bps ramping there is more teams using private/non standard boards? Do you really think we are any closer to weeding out the cheats with this system or will the next move be let everyone use full auto breakout modes & Ramping velocity modes as standard as long as they are 15 bps?

I also believe that if you fix sufficient fines & bans at the top level then most smaller comps leagues will follow suit & this will then put pressure on the industry because if cheating boards are getting teams players banned all over the world then that will reflect badly on there sales & image.

I really dont understand why everyone seems to think this is the way forward, its like saying let all athelites take drugs becouse we cant be bothered to catch or deter the real cheats Lets not forget that 99.9% of all teams dont have the Finance, Knowledge or will to actually get cheat boards made so lets go back to the core & start fining & banning teams at top level this has to filter down to the industry becouse how can they market a team or gun that has been banned from top level paintball?

I really dont have all the answers but i do think if we go back to true semi & police it in the same way we have with 15 bps cap & then fix hugh penalties such as lifetime bans, heavy fines etc then i feel in my opinion we will be a bit closer to were we all want to be in terms of legal markers.

This is not a way of stopping cheat boards but it is the basic blueprint for massively reducing the use. It will also take time, money, technology & most importantly good experienced marshals & Techs to be paid & present on field for every game but i do wonder if the Fat Cats of paintball can really be bothered or even want to waste time & money on someting that doesnt effect the scedule or amount of teams or money they can cram out of the events?