Until you apologise on this board for libelling the RL, it ain't finished between me and you !!!!
Sergei Leontiev : The Russian Legion Response
- Thread starter Robbo
- Start date
Pete, when you provide irrefutable proof of the situation then I will apologise gracefully. There is no such proof. There is just people's opinions.
I am sorry this has happened to RL but I am not sorry for any points I have made, I believe they are still valid and needed to be made to stop more issues like this in the future. Do you see why that is important? if only to stop other teams being put under such scrutiny.
Your defense of your friends is admirable I respect that and I have also stood up for the RL's clean play before, most noticeably at the World Cup where I put quite a few yanks straight on what they were saying, but there is no proof about what happened or why in this incident, other than what has already happened at Portugal and what they were penalised for.
Until then we are all entitled to our opinions based on what we know and how we feel. The one thing everyone has a right to in this world is an opinion. We have different ones here, although we agree on many other things. It happens.
manike
I am sorry this has happened to RL but I am not sorry for any points I have made, I believe they are still valid and needed to be made to stop more issues like this in the future. Do you see why that is important? if only to stop other teams being put under such scrutiny.
Your defense of your friends is admirable I respect that and I have also stood up for the RL's clean play before, most noticeably at the World Cup where I put quite a few yanks straight on what they were saying, but there is no proof about what happened or why in this incident, other than what has already happened at Portugal and what they were penalised for.
Until then we are all entitled to our opinions based on what we know and how we feel. The one thing everyone has a right to in this world is an opinion. We have different ones here, although we agree on many other things. It happens.
manike
The whole point is , as you have already stated, nobody knows the facts and yet you still accused them of intentionally cheating, get it????
Has the penny dropped yet ???
You can't have it both ways !!!
You cannot accuse in one breath and in the other acknowledge that all you have, is opinion.
Now I ain't spending no more time on this ****, the onus is on you to apologise on this board for libelling the RL without any of the necessary facts being verified.
The choice is yours !!!!
Robbo
Will we ever drop this?
The facts as I see them point in one direction. Whether intentional or not that's how I see it, people can and will see it differently. The evidence you have given to the contrary is just opinion.
The facts of what happened are verified. By the judges decisions on the day and by Sergei's own words, they had guns that were capable of shooting more than one shot per trigger pull. That is the only fact here. The interpretation of that fact and issues surrounding them is what allows us all to have our opinions.
We can all draw our own.
manike
The facts as I see them point in one direction. Whether intentional or not that's how I see it, people can and will see it differently. The evidence you have given to the contrary is just opinion.
The facts of what happened are verified. By the judges decisions on the day and by Sergei's own words, they had guns that were capable of shooting more than one shot per trigger pull. That is the only fact here. The interpretation of that fact and issues surrounding them is what allows us all to have our opinions.
We can all draw our own.
manike
Gloves, headgear, time and place. Won't solve your argument, but will make one of you feel better. Love the passion you guys put into this.
I personally think that apologies to the Legion would not be misplaced.
Perhaps you never meant to say that Russian Legion were willingly and knowingly cheating, but the implications were there. So at the least it can be considered a bad choice of words, which may have serious, and uncalled for effects on the Legion's rep.
This should not be a case of Manike versus Robbo, but just common courtesy.
I'm not interested in seeing who wins this debate, I just want to see that the Legion will be cleared of the accusations of any intentional wrongdoings.
Peace.
Perhaps you never meant to say that Russian Legion were willingly and knowingly cheating, but the implications were there. So at the least it can be considered a bad choice of words, which may have serious, and uncalled for effects on the Legion's rep.
This should not be a case of Manike versus Robbo, but just common courtesy.
I'm not interested in seeing who wins this debate, I just want to see that the Legion will be cleared of the accusations of any intentional wrongdoings.
Peace.
Pete would probably win that one pretty easily.
I've always believed in solving my problems with rational debate and my mind.I am passionate about paintball. It's something I am often guilty of, and get in trouble for, and which costs me a bloody fortune
manike
I hear you Jay...
The effects on the Legions rep happened when they were found with two guns firing multiple shots per trigger pull in one game. Not here.
Here we are just discussing why and how that might of happened.
manike
There is no proof of their intentions. One way or another. If there was we would not be having this discussion.
The effects on the Legions rep happened when they were found with two guns firing multiple shots per trigger pull in one game. Not here.
Here we are just discussing why and how that might of happened.
manike
From the moment I begun this, I was only ever trying to defend not my good name but the name of the RL; as has already been said, I have been their staunchest advocate for well over a year now and have gone down on record many times saying they are the best team I have ever seen both on the field and off, for reasons stated.
Now Nick's last post has put it more eloquently than I could, the very core of the reason why an apology is necessary, perhaps I was so angry with all this I just couldn’t articulate what needed to be said, whatever the reason I am indebted to Nick for clarifying things.
Now this apology has nothing to do with me whatsoever, it should come from Manike, and be solely directed toward Sergei and the Russian Legion and without delay.
Manike's defence in all this. basically comes down to a difference of opinion and his right to hold one.
Well firstly, Hitler had an opinion on the Jewish people, does that make it inviolate just because he has the right?
Does the right to hold an opinion over-ride any consideration applied to the validity and integrity of that opinion ?
Of course not !!
Now Manike has already stated he does not know the full facts and yet he has come on this board and said the RL intentionally cheated and by default called Sergei a liar.
That is libellous in anyone's book and insulting to a team who have done more to drag this sport of ours from it's sometimes clammy depths than any other I know.
Now this is the deal Manike, either you apologise on this board to Sergei and the RL or you will be banned from this board.
Now when I sometimes get into scrapes like these I ask around to see whether or not I am on my own and it's my temper leading me the wrong way.
To that end, I have people, some of whom are on this board, whom I can turn to for reference.
They are of the same mind Manike, even John (Canpap) has stated he did not mean to call the RL intentional cheats.
You are on your own, if you do not believe me, email the likes of Bud, Nick, Rancid and so on.
Any one of these would tell me I'm wrong in a heartbeat as they have all done many times before, but this time it is you who are bang out of order.
You have the choice !!!
Robbo
Now Nick's last post has put it more eloquently than I could, the very core of the reason why an apology is necessary, perhaps I was so angry with all this I just couldn’t articulate what needed to be said, whatever the reason I am indebted to Nick for clarifying things.
Now this apology has nothing to do with me whatsoever, it should come from Manike, and be solely directed toward Sergei and the Russian Legion and without delay.
Manike's defence in all this. basically comes down to a difference of opinion and his right to hold one.
Well firstly, Hitler had an opinion on the Jewish people, does that make it inviolate just because he has the right?
Does the right to hold an opinion over-ride any consideration applied to the validity and integrity of that opinion ?
Of course not !!
Now Manike has already stated he does not know the full facts and yet he has come on this board and said the RL intentionally cheated and by default called Sergei a liar.
That is libellous in anyone's book and insulting to a team who have done more to drag this sport of ours from it's sometimes clammy depths than any other I know.
Now this is the deal Manike, either you apologise on this board to Sergei and the RL or you will be banned from this board.
Now when I sometimes get into scrapes like these I ask around to see whether or not I am on my own and it's my temper leading me the wrong way.
To that end, I have people, some of whom are on this board, whom I can turn to for reference.
They are of the same mind Manike, even John (Canpap) has stated he did not mean to call the RL intentional cheats.
You are on your own, if you do not believe me, email the likes of Bud, Nick, Rancid and so on.
Any one of these would tell me I'm wrong in a heartbeat as they have all done many times before, but this time it is you who are bang out of order.
You have the choice !!!
Robbo
Pete, if you go back and read my original post in this whole mess in this thread
http://130.94.173.222/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6048
you will see that I simply asked a rhetorical question about at what point does fine tuning become an illegal practice, it wasn't designed to get at RL it was designed to discuss this whole trigger bounce issue just as we did over dinner (maybe i should have started a new thread on the topic alone but I think people would have still equated it to the RL issue so what's the point?).
I also asked how you could be so sure about anyones intentions.
And that if someone knew what was happening then they were in the wrong. If, as you have pointed out they didn't know until the moment a judge used their gun, then they were not in the wrong. Quite simple really. You believe they didn't know. I believe they did. It's choices we have made from the information we have receieved.
I see nothing wrong with that set of choices that I have provided? It's obviously up to each person to decide whether they knew. If from that you sumise I have called them cheats then you are obviously able to see my side.
Those were the only points that needed answering. Instead you have ranted and raved, called me a liar and now equated me to Hitler.
If you look at some of the other posts I think there are people that agree with me and see my points.
If you wish to ban me for my opinion or for pointing out what may have happened then that is your perogative. It's a sad day but your choice. I suggest and ask that before you do so you just re-read the whole thread (both of them) with a little less of a rant head on. That's what I have done several times over the last few hours.
I shall also agree with Nicks post but as he so nicely points out even he can detect 'the odd shot'. At any point in a game if a player detects an 'odd shot' then they are outside of the rules and know it. Now it's unlikely a player will call themselves out but in my idealistic interpretation of the rules then they should. Maybe I am being too idealistic in this dirty world of ours. Maybe my dream of a clean game is just a joke, but if some of us don't stand up for it then what is left?
Maybe I am trying too hard to clean up the game and finding guilt where there is none? That is possible. Anything is possible.
Maybe RL did not 'intend' to cheat. No-one can be certain other than the two players on the team.
manike
I also suggest that maybe in the future if you have such a problem with someone and their views and opinions that rather trying to beat them in rational debate via the use of insults that you just e-mail them a couple of quick lines. I have tried to e-mail you but couldn't find the e-mail addy.
http://130.94.173.222/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6048
you will see that I simply asked a rhetorical question about at what point does fine tuning become an illegal practice, it wasn't designed to get at RL it was designed to discuss this whole trigger bounce issue just as we did over dinner (maybe i should have started a new thread on the topic alone but I think people would have still equated it to the RL issue so what's the point?).
I also asked how you could be so sure about anyones intentions.
And that if someone knew what was happening then they were in the wrong. If, as you have pointed out they didn't know until the moment a judge used their gun, then they were not in the wrong. Quite simple really. You believe they didn't know. I believe they did. It's choices we have made from the information we have receieved.
I see nothing wrong with that set of choices that I have provided? It's obviously up to each person to decide whether they knew. If from that you sumise I have called them cheats then you are obviously able to see my side.
Those were the only points that needed answering. Instead you have ranted and raved, called me a liar and now equated me to Hitler.
If you look at some of the other posts I think there are people that agree with me and see my points.
If you wish to ban me for my opinion or for pointing out what may have happened then that is your perogative. It's a sad day but your choice. I suggest and ask that before you do so you just re-read the whole thread (both of them) with a little less of a rant head on. That's what I have done several times over the last few hours.
I shall also agree with Nicks post but as he so nicely points out even he can detect 'the odd shot'. At any point in a game if a player detects an 'odd shot' then they are outside of the rules and know it. Now it's unlikely a player will call themselves out but in my idealistic interpretation of the rules then they should. Maybe I am being too idealistic in this dirty world of ours. Maybe my dream of a clean game is just a joke, but if some of us don't stand up for it then what is left?
Maybe I am trying too hard to clean up the game and finding guilt where there is none? That is possible. Anything is possible.
Maybe RL did not 'intend' to cheat. No-one can be certain other than the two players on the team.
manike
I also suggest that maybe in the future if you have such a problem with someone and their views and opinions that rather trying to beat them in rational debate via the use of insults that you just e-mail them a couple of quick lines. I have tried to e-mail you but couldn't find the e-mail addy.