Rule changes at World Cup

[Tony Montana]

Rules Changes ????

Guys. You are talking about information and rules that were in effect last year, or maybe even the year before.

These aren't new rules that were suddenly decided yesterday. Jerry did not contact Paintball.com yesterday with these new rules. Paintball.com just decided to put this info up on their page yesterday. They added some filler to their page and the pessimistic paintball players were instantly looking for the worst possible scenario.

Those rules have been in effect for quite a while. Why the sudden uproar?

Chris Raehl - you are probably one of the most level headed, reasonable, seemingly intelligent paintball posters on the net today. Common sense is often lacking in the discussions I see on the net. Everyone is looking for the next conspiracy or the next "pot to stir". You are an exception. It is appreciated.

 

[Wadidiz]

Rules Changes ????

Originally posted by Tony Montana
Guys. You are talking about information and rules that were in effect last year, or maybe even the year before.

These aren't new rules that were suddenly decided yesterday. Jerry did not contact Paintball.com yesterday with these new rules. Paintball.com just decided to put this info up on their page yesterday. They added some filler to their page and the pessimistic paintball players were instantly looking for the worst possible scenario.

Those rules have been in effect for quite a while. Why the sudden uproar?

Chris Raehl - you are probably one of the most level headed, reasonable, seemingly intelligent paintball posters on the net today. Common sense is often lacking in the discussions I see on the net. Everyone is looking for the next conspiracy or the next "pot to stir". You are an exception. It is appreciated.

What I read on the links (did you try those links Tony Montana?) I posted a few back sure had me fooled!
Glad you're around to set us all straight (doh!)

 

[raehl]

Thanks.

Knowing that this was around last year (or the year before that) I'm willing to bet it isn't even a rule modification at all, just an old page that no one rememberred to delete from the web server when they made what was the 2000 page into the 2001 page into the 2002 page.

- Chris

 

[Baca Loco]

Thanks.

Originally posted by raehl
Knowing that this was around last year (or the year before that) I'm willing to bet it isn't even a rule modification at all, just an old page that no one rememberred to delete from the web server when they made what was the 2000 page into the 2001 page into the 2002 page.
- Chris

Which would make you wrong--again. Tony didn't say those were old rules no longer in effect (and he should know). That rule was intended to do precisely what I said it was intended to do--provide a loophole to organizers so they could avoid strict enforcement (which is virtually impossible anyway).
C'mon, Tony. Tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Wadidiz]

Thanks.

Originally posted by raehl
Knowing that this was around last year (or the year before that) I'm willing to bet it isn't even a rule modification at all, just an old page that no one rememberred to delete from the web server when they made what was the 2000 page into the 2001 page into the 2002 page.

- Chris

With all respect, and at the risk of being ridiculous, let's compare the published "rules modifications" with the 2002 NPPL rules:

From the NPPL rules, under "Markers", (I added bold.)

5.21. The definition of a trigger is the moveable lever or button that comes in contact with the finger. The contacts of a switch are not a trigger. A trigger pull requires an exertion of force by the finger on the trigger and a release of force by the finger on the trigger during every firing cycle. Markers may fire at any rate of fire, and may shoot any number of paintballs, provided that it fires in semi auto or pump mode only , which means that no more than one paintball is discharged during each firing cycle.

From the "rules modifications for the World Cup",

Any marker that in any way enhances the number of paintballs ejected during a firing cycle, must be limited to ejecting no more than 8.75 paintballs per second. Such markers that are not full autos will be permitted for use at the World Cup. Full Autos are not permitted. All paintball markers must be gravity fed.

From NPPL rules:

5.22. Players may use a single, 68 caliber, pump or semi automatic paintball marker, which consists of a single barrel, a single trigger. Double action triggers and paintball markers capable of firing in other than semi auto auto or pump mode are prohibited.

So this is a change or reversion to old rules, because there is no mention of any 8.75 shots per second in the 2002 NPPL rules.

Millennium has an additional rule: 5.29 which specifically states not enhanced modes.

Concerning "gravity feed": I did a search in the current NPPL rules and couldn't find any mention of gravity feed. That implies non-gravity feed was o.k.

I have a copy of the 1999 NPPL rules. Enhanced modes were allowed then at less than 9 sps (5.23.1) and gravity feed was specifically mentioned as being allowed, but nothing was specified about it being the only type feed allowed (strange!)(5.25).

So there is definitely flip-flopping going on.

Then there is the goggle stuff mentioned in an earlier post.

I'm no lawyer but I rest my case. The flipping rules need to be clarified! Again, no disrespect, but my last post was ironic.

Steve

 

[Wadidiz]

Re: Thanks.

Originally posted by Baca Loco

Which would make you wrong--again. Tony didn't say those were old rules no longer in effect (and he should know). That rule was intended to do precisely what I said it was intended to do--provide a loophole to organizers so they could avoid strict enforcement (which is virtually impossible anyway).
C'mon, Tony. Tell me I'm wrong.

Right, Baca Loco!

I still go back to what I said before. The rules should be reasonable, clear AND FOLLOWED. How ridiculous we who judge look when we read the rules, follow and enforce them only to have someone, who perhaps has a better contact network, say: "No, dude! No-one enforces that rule. You're being too strict."

 

[raehl]

Re: Thanks.

Originally posted by Baca Loco

Which would make you wrong--again. Tony didn't say those were old rules no longer in effect (and he should know). That rule was intended to do precisely what I said it was intended to do--provide a loophole to organizers so they could avoid strict enforcement (which is virtually impossible anyway).
C'mon, Tony. Tell me I'm wrong.

Are you serously telling me you think that you can only use gravity feed for World Cup but any feed for the other 4 events each year is ok? And your marker has to be semi or pump only for the other four events, but can have enhanced triggers for World Cup, as long as it's restricted to 8.75 balls per second?

Eight point seven five?


This looks like a rule that got written 2-3 years ago when everyone was trying to debunch their panties about the whole ROF thing and thus ended up being written around a few particular products. I.e. we want these particular markers to be ok, so if we set the limit at 8.75 bps, we don't have to worry about people being ticked off at not being able to use these markers, but also don't have to worry about people showing up with the aformentioned 60-shot burst mode trigger.

And of course it doesn't reflect the general change in philosophy in the industry that it's far better to have reliable force-fed loading with ROF limitted by semi-mode than to try and limit fire rate with the gravity feed requirement and deal with the unreliable loading that creates.


Regardless, it's not about right or wrong. Most people read something on the net or a web board and say "Is this right or wrong?" That's why there's so much stupidity online. You need to read something, then stop and think "Does this make any SENSE?" This rule doesn't make any sense, because I can't honestly see anyone looking at this rule or writing this rule in the past 12 months with the intention of having it apply at this world cup.


I still say this is an old rule that no one, Jerry included, ever consciously decided to apply to this year - just one from last year that no one botherred to change/get rid of. Not because I'm "in the know" or anything, just because some CRITICAL THOUGHT on the whole thing screams "Yeah, right."


- Chris

 

[Wadidiz]

Re: Re: Thanks.

Originally posted by raehl

I still say this is an old rule that no one, Jerry included, ever consciously decided to apply to this year - just one from last year that no one botherred to change/get rid of. Not because I'm "in the know" or anything, just because some CRITICAL THOUGHT on the whole thing screams "Yeah, right."


- Chris

I'm not Baca but I want to clarify the whole point with this thread:

Some non-critcally thinking idiots might just believe what was written.

What was written on Paintball.com has caused some confusion because the article looked so "official" and all the other info seemed so right-on. And mainly because the article linked to the official World Cup Website which otherwise looked fresh and updated.

If they have kept the old rule modifications from a few years ago then that is a whole lot more scandalous than having unclear rules!

Why, because this is by far the biggest cup ever. And there are many teams that are going for the first time. For some it is their first tournament ever. They rely on the information that is disseminated by the sources I mentioned.

CRITICAL THINKING tells me that would be just plain unprofessional and would need to be addressed along with many other rule-related things brought up on this thread.

To cause trouble or stir up something? No, because we want the sport to get better, and NPPL sets the standard.

I agree that something here doesn't make sense. I wish someone from the organizations in question would clear it up.
Then we could just consider this whole thread a little fun or, at worst, a waste of time.

 

[raehl]

Well..

It is much more likely that this particular page was overlooked for entirely honest reasons (like the person updating the site wasn't someone who gives a crap about paintball triggers and gravity vs. force feed) than for it to be "some big conspiracy". Sure, the conspiracy is more fun, but like X-Ball predictions, not very informative or productive.


Anyway, I would have done this already myself except that I'm at work, but if you're really that worried about it call up Lane and ask. His number isn't exactly a secret. Then let us all know what the real answer is. I'm betting it'll be something along the lines of "We didn't realize that was still up and you can just ignore it" followed by a post on smacktalk/warpig and the other usual NPPL/PSP info outlets saying it's old info.


- Chris

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by raehl

1--Are you serously telling me you think that you can only use gravity feed for World Cup but any feed for the other 4 events each year is ok?

2--And your marker has to be semi or pump only for the other four events, but can have enhanced triggers for World Cup, as long as it's restricted to 8.75 balls per second?

3--This looks like a rule that got written 2-3 years ago when everyone was trying to debunch their panties about the whole ROF thing and thus ended up being written around a few particular products

4--And of course it doesn't reflect the general change in philosophy in the industry that it's far better to have reliable force-fed loading with ROF limitted by semi-mode than to try and limit fire rate with the gravity feed requirement and deal with the unreliable loading that creates.

5--"Does this make any SENSE?" This rule doesn't make any sense, because I can't honestly see anyone looking at this rule or writing this rule in the past 12 months with the intention of having it apply at this world cup.

- Chris

1--Of course there are no *special* rules for World Cup alone. The rules, such as they are, apply to all PSP/NPPL events.
2--Where have you been the last four years?
3--That is more or less where the 8.75 comes from, however, what's been quoted and reacted to is/was a modified version of the earlier attempts to make different modes of fire legal (read: Shocker--at least originally).
4--ROF is higher now than it's ever been, semi or not, and the industry gentlemen's agreement to limit ROF maximums is out the window, too. And the loader changes had nothing whatsoever to do with ROF in any way, shape or form.
5--the specific "rule" in question serves exactly the point I've claimed it does and is the reason it's still 'on the books.'

PS--I can flat guarantee you reps of the PSP have seen this thread already today. Not a guess, not a hypothesis. That is a fact--believe it or not. Do you see a response?