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Return of the King

Intheno

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Sep 18, 2003
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Hello Gyro,
Yes, I am aware of the problems that face the US retailers, but these retailers are protected by MAP pricing in most cases, and they have a middle market to sell to. The UK stores have no protection at all, and typically, unless they find a niche very fast, they last about a year. Planet is the only store I can think of that has successfully done this. The fact that US websites are competing with US stores does not matter. The fact is that the money is staying in the US. This money facilitates sponsorship budgets for the manufacturers, who are also in the US, for the US teams.

I believe that WDP's philosophy is a much broader one, and possibly the longest dollar investment in the industry - see Pure promotions, Fox Shows, Super 7 Series, NPPL DVD's etc. While its true that WDP are a british firm, thier sponsorship dollar ratio will no doubt be split up as per where thier gun sales are.
Also, lets not get the UK and Europe mixed up. There is twice as much mid-range and high-end business in Germany than there is in the UK. The UK leads Europe in Rental business, but thats where the gravy train ends.
This leads me back to the problem of how little the US understands European business. They are the Vikings rather than the Romans, if you understand the historical metaphor (I know you guys aren't too hot on history - Christopher Columbus and all that...)
The middle market has been choked because, a. there are few stores, b. There is more money in the rental business, which is very strong, c. Because when people do buy midrange markers, there are very few places to get them repaired or use them (see b), It is basically difficult to be a 'scenario player' in the UK, and d. there is no land to play on. Going out to play ball in the woods will get you arrested. 70% of the guns and paint used in the US are used in 'renegade' games, where people just go out into the vast expanse of the US and play ball. This market is missing in Europe, because it is just not possible to do that. You could do it in parts of Germany, and it happens, but technically it is illegal, and therefore not encouraged.
So you are left with rental and High-end. Anyone looking to get into high-end paintball will end up on a team very quickly, and then they will become aware that they can pay less, or get sponsored, or grey import product from the US. At this stage there will be very little for European firms to earn out of them, wheras in the US there would generally be a couple of years of growth and 3-4 gun purchases b4 a player reaches that stage, if at all. Go to a UK event. Look at the guns people are still using, you will laugh. Europeans do not have the disposable income that americans have, that's a simple fact. They choose between a new paintball gun and a new washer for thier wife. The disposable income you guys get, while it is slowly bringing your economy to its knees, creates a much larger entertainment budget for the US family.


And Ronnie, I know your store, and your old man. As store owners do you really think that having Dye and National within an hours drive is going to better your business? Did you know a retail website is on the way with low pricing and direct shipping a la 888 paintball? I beg you to open your eyes and protect your business. By the way, hows the site doing? Loving and nurturing is exactly what the middle market needs. But it isn't going to get it. Its going to get a 'wham, bam, thankyou ma'am', and you will be sore for weeks...

Anyway, you get the picture. I could go on all day.
 

Gyroscope

Pastor of Muppets
Aug 11, 2002
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Interesting.

Incidentally, I knew the problems faced by US brick and mortar retailers is much less severe than that you describe in UK retailers. If the problem is ultimately a lack of geographic room, I don't see taht there is any solution.

As for the disposable income discrepancy, that makes it hard to understand how there is a tournament scene in the UK at all. When money is dear, I can't imagine jumping from rental to tournament level participation.

PS The Vikings were the ones wit the pointy hats, and the Romans had the horsehair thing on top of their hats, right? Or are you talking about an economy based on plunder vs an economy based on tribute? I am a little confused by that metaphor, I guess.
 

Chicago

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Jan 31, 2005
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MAP pricing is illegal in the US. If I buy something from you, you can't legally tell me what price I'm allowed to sell it for. That's not to say it didn't happen, but it's just a State's Attorney's investigation from going away.

Regardless, you guys can't have it both ways. *EITHER* paintball is too expensive and people need to be able to get stuff cheap, *OR* manufacturers need to stop undercutting retail outlets.


Fact of the matter is, and this isn't just in paintball, less and less stuff is going to be bought at retailers. There's no reason to have the cost of a product driven up by building, sales people, lighting, rent, etc, when you can just order it from a faceless wharehouse somewhere for less. Well, unlss you really want service, in which case you'll pay for it.

But if people don't want service, that's what I like to call TOUGH **** for the retailer. "I can't stay in business if the manufacturer sells to customers at the same price they sell to me!"

Exactly. If the manufacturer doesn't need you to sell their product, well, tough. It's called factory-direct.

If the manufacturer DOES need you to sell their product, then people will pay you a price premium to get the product from you.
 

Ronnie Hollington

London Tigers #9
Aug 4, 2003
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www.mayhem-paintball.co.uk
intherno yes and no, i dont think we can really compete in the High end gun market which was what i meant whilst now we can sell to our regualr customers guns which are affordable no one wants to spend over £800 on a gun from rental to tournys we can fill the void selling them a £75 gun to get them in to paintball that i our market. National are pretty good at not screwing us over as they seem to understand that wiht out us the sites there i no paintball.

Any manafacture that does not want us (shops and sites) to sell there product is missing out on a massive section of th market. After all sites and shops get people in to paintball they are the first line and the biggest. with out sites there is no paintball. if you added up teh amount of people sites bring to paintball and advertising they spend in bring people in to paintball compared to manafactures there is no comparrison.

Intherno whats your real name btw ?
 

Intheno

People's Supermod
Sep 18, 2003
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Gyro - The Romans came over, stayed for hundreds of years, built roads and infrastructure, brought law and order to the country, government, an army, books, common language, buildings that weren't made of wood, and generally left the place a lot better than when they found it.
The Vikings however, used to stay for a couple of hours, kill everyone, burn everything, take whatever was shiny, and then leave.

Chicago.
MAP pricing is not ilegal. You do not tell people what price to sell the product at, only the minimum price they are allowed to advertise it for. Yes, telling them what to sell it for is illegal. This is not MAP pricing though.
As for having it both ways. I say again. You do not know the European market. You talk solely from a US perspective. Factory Direct makes sense to you. Thats because the factories are in the US. The US factories actually don't often sell direct into Europe, they appoint European Distributors. Then they give thier US distributors carte blanche to ignore the European distributors territory, as all they want is to move more units, and so it doesn't really matter who they sell the guns to, just so long as they get sold.
As the US distributors have so much more market to aim at, they don't need to look at Europe as a profit centre, just somewhere to get the numbers up. Anyway, I already went through that.
What the European Industry needs is structure. Thyis could only be acheived by US fims that supply Europe sticking to thier word and respecting the need of the industry for an infrastructure capable of creating funds for investment. This is never going to happen, because in the US the green eye'd monster is king.
I like your 'tough ****' philosophy though, didn't see that coming :rolleyes:

Ronnie - you've gotta get spell-check man, seriously...
 
D

duffistuta

Guest
Originally posted by Intheno
This is never going to happen, because in the US the green eye'd monster is king.
What's jealousy got to do with anything?

Or are you referring to Bush?
 
D

duffistuta

Guest
Originally posted by Intheno
yeah, sorry, meant to say 'one-eyed monster',

the one eyed monster is king,
Gabrielle is King of America?
 

Intheno

People's Supermod
Sep 18, 2003
688
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Chicago (South Side)
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oh, and you'll like this Duffster,
in the US they actually have Antiques Roadshow on the TV.
Antiques in the US!
Kinda like watching an Australian talent show,
or Canadian Pro Paintball,
or studying French Diplomacy,
or taking German Etiquette lessons,
or discussing law and order in Sierra Leone,
Tourism in the Lebanon,
The Saudi Porn Industry
or, well, you get the picture.