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Return of the King

Matski

SO hot right now
Aug 8, 2001
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Exacltly, by being a top class site (spending on maintenance/improving things, full time staff etc) NPF retain a huge amount of customers, who come time and time again, paying premium prices for a day out, often introducing more repeat custom through the friends they bring along.
It's the repeat custom of customers who pay the premium prices that site owners care about the most...thats all I was saying..:)

Indeed your right, more sites need to take this approach rather than trying to make a quick buck...but then again, maybe myopia is just natures way of sifting out who does better:)
 

Piper

Administrator
Nov 25, 2001
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Planet Piper away from you freaks!
Just had a conversation with someone in the USA. Now he has read Robbo's thang and said something that kind of made me think a bit.

Do sites in the UK give people entertainment?

Now forget the money that the people bring to the site, think about the entertainment side of things. Do site owners give entertainment or is it down to the money?

Thoughts?
 

Chicago

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Jan 31, 2005
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Maybe britain is just the US in 1993?

What are the paintball demographicslikein Britain? How many people in the population play?

If I'm reading this right, $40 just in field fees is pretty darned expensive, you'd only pay that in the northeast or maybe at an indoor here in the US. Maybe Britain just hasn't "grown" enough yet, and just hasn't hit that point in it's paintball development where a move to better services for walkon players makes economic sense?
 

Lucky.One

New Member
Dec 1, 2003
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suckago
www.lucky-paintball.com
Its not about the money. To know how to fight, you have to know what you are up against. Counter Strike Source and Halo2 etc can very much be what paintball is... social, very entertaining and even going as far as getting your heart pounding. Argue all you want, but kids who grow up in todays world are so overwhelmed with cool tech that paintball can be somewhat stone age. Paintball will undoubtly have a place going forward, but what size will depend on how its nutured. The fields that have done well do not charge the cheapest price necessarily, they deliver the best product, the best entertainment. Does your local field make sure everyone has a good time? Does it have scenario type fields that people can immerse themselves in an alter ego? Or does it have snotty Sport reffs simply guiding herds to fields and making fun of those who do not play well? Where are the cheat codes? Where is the reset button? Where are the restrooms and quick tips. The protection form the elements and the friendly tutor? A HUGE part of selling an experiance is making sure everyone has at least one REALLY good game.

Are the site operators in the UK collecting addresses, forming data sheets and then sending out bits of mail enticing repeat customers?

The sport side may give paintball a PC image to tout, but is that what the first time user even cares about... not usually, the PC side is how they justify to their moms to let them play (they then often go play the 'scenario' side and love it.)

Kids shoot guns in so many video games, then they go out and try paintball only to find the markers wanting when it comes to either performance or feel. (do u guys have, like, a sniper rifle?)

Look, i am sure there are plenty of sites that are top notch, but if growing your base is the key to long term success, how do you go about doing that?
You have to really analyze what you are up against, even if i am wrong in some areas, and then formulate a plan to combat that foe. If you want more players to choose from for high quality sport teams, you have to grow from the bottom up. If you want more sponsorship dollars, justify this by figuring out a way to grow the sport in general, its a long hual plan but one that may put a chunk of change in some pockets along the way.

paintballs numbers should be double in the US, they fail to do the above as well. We just have more rednecks, thankfully. Regardless, there is not a doubt in any persons mind that this could be a long term attractive recreational industry, however, paintball was never really organized on the backs of good business and vision, more supply and demand. It hasnt changed, at the entry level, since i started 15 years ago. Well fellas, the consumer base sure has. Paintball needs to evolve as an industry. Problem is, eveyone will say it has blah blah electronic guns etc. And if you think that is evolving the industry, you are an idiot. Where is our governing bodies? Where are our federations? Where is our industry watch dogs? Our data collection? Go look at skiing, snowboarding even skateboarding. There are real backbones there. IF you have a real backbone you can really get good data and make more accurate decisions. When most ski resorts banned snowboarding, they did studies and figured out they were turing away millions, so they changed their tune didnt they. Their consumer base changed, they changed with it. We have old skool people doing old skool things worried about short term profits. Well, that has got to change, and someone is going to have to do it.

Yeah, i am idealistic, and alot of other things, but take from it what you will. There are short term things that can be picked out and executed that can make a lot of people more profitable. For the long term stuff. I have learned the hard way I am on my own for getting that done.

If they have the time of their lives doing something, they do not care what you charge them. Its the product that needs to be reworked, not the price point.

I will close with this. I have found the UK scene intriguing, i think that a small handfull of people could really changed things there. I just throw my babblings hoping that maybe you take some and run with it to a positive result. now back to work.
 

Intheno

People's Supermod
Sep 18, 2003
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you americans think you can change European thinking huh?

How many US companies have set up locations in Europe and failed to bring the US business model to Euroball

Kingman
BE
PMI (remember the double page ad with the aircraft carrier and the containers full of product back in the mid-nineties?)

Europe was thier vietnam and they all were sent packing back to the US with thier tails between thier legs.

Now national and Dye want a go at it.
It will be interesting to see how they do.

European people are not the same as American people. The language is the same, but the people, philosophy and culture are way different. The Paintball people (upper level tournament players) are probably the most americanised of the Europeans that I have met, but it is naive and arrogant to believe that US models work in Europe. It is what US firms have always assumed and the reason they have failed to succeed.

Companies need to stop trying to understand the business and try to understand the people. Learning languages is something that would help the US firms to develop relationships in europe (note the terminology I used there), but thats not likely to happen now is it, and shouting doesn't really work so well outside of New Jersey....
 

Intheno

People's Supermod
Sep 18, 2003
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just realised something
remember when America set up all those nuclear bases in Europe in the 80's to counter the vile commie threat?
They were setting us up!
Now they can claim we have 'weapons of mass destruction' (albeit thiers) and invade us to take all out natural resources and paintball market share! Those cunning devils!
They are set up to take via xenophobic foreign policy that which could not be taken via hostile business practice...

One more thing before I get flamed for being anti-american (which I am generally not).
One reason the European market is not as healthy is that it is used as a dumping ground for US firms that want to get thier numbers up.
To use an example:
Tippmann have a price at which thier product must be sold for in the US. No-one can undercut this price or they will be cut off. When companies sell a good amount of Tippmanns they get a percentage rebate.
This rule does not apply to Europe, meaning that US firms can sell Tippmanns at $1 over thier cost to the Euro's in order to bump numbers and hit rebates. When the US companies get those rebates, do they go looking to sponsor a Euro team to give a little back? No, of course not. So revenue is continually taken from European firms and taken instead by the US ones. While this is all fair and well in business, the European industry and teams are damaged by this, while the US firms and teams benefit from it.

Therefore, instead of you advanced US paintball businesspeople offering advice to those backwards thinking Euro's stuck in 1993, why not allow thier industry to grow and flourish?
Because that would mean lower numbers, right?
Can't have that now can we?
The Tippmann thing is an example, but you can apply it to paint, or whatever else you choose.

The simple fact is: When US firms stop treating Europe like thier dumping ground, and European players start ordering from European companies. The European market will become viable, sponsorships will increase, training facilities can be established, teams can be paid and properly financed by the industry, and we can head towards the paintball utopia that everyone in Europe wants.

I just think its cheeky for Americans to point at the Euro market and say "thats fxxxed up" when it is thier own companies that have sent said market into decline. The profits of euroball are being sent abroad, so home-growth cannot be sustained. I normally agree with Robbo, but if he thinks that the presence of National and Dye will help European paintball I am inclined to disagree with him. Financially it could be a disaster for Euro companies and teams. Talk about a short dollar!!
About 5 new stores will have been set up in the US this week. When was the last time you heard of a store opening in Europe, and when was the last time you heard of one closing due to lack of business because customers were ordering from US websites and wholesalers?

Go ahead, say what you like, I know paintball on both sides of the Atlantic, and I feel for the players/teams in europe, but they have to start by looking after thier own future.
EG - I was pleased to see Shockwave being sponsored by Ego's. Thats a great start! Well done Shockwave and well done Planet!

sorry about the long post, got carried away for a while there...
 

Ronnie Hollington

London Tigers #9
Aug 4, 2003
171
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Mayhem
www.mayhem-paintball.co.uk
I have a very diffrent view on paintball since i was 7 years old its kinda been my life working, playing etc. Piper has been involved in paintball a long time too and i can see exactly what he means. I read all of Robbos posts, first i thought err thats a bit harsh thats a good points thats not fair, but after i finished reading all of them i could see he had a very good point. Due to installments it did kinda end "and the sites f£ck everyone" lol which luckily i read on to see he had a good point.

Some of my side of the story.
If you work in paintball as a small reatail shop in the uk you get f£cked. that is a fact no disrespect to anyone its been like this for years ever since Mick Hold£~w~~ (for legal reasons) got all people to open up shops across the county sold them the equipment, only to sell it same price to all the teams. Paintball retail has never really recovered. Everyone expects everything for nothing and gets it for nothing this is not the players fault just shows some comon sense by them to take advantage of the situation. Now this may seem like i am being a tosser, but as a shop and site we spend god knows how much with a lot of companys, more in a month that your teams will in a year, so say we buy in the latest gun "gun X" for example, you would think yay everyones going to want one. But oh know the company down the road we brought from that we spend 100's of 1000 of pounds with sells it to them for what we paid for it trade and not retail.

one point a guy who worked part time for us could buy gun "y" cheaper then we could and he did not even have an account with that company.

This is not a b!tch things are changing.

Positivlely National and Evil are going to revolutionise paintball in the UK we are starting to see lots of Kids buy guns now as they can afford them you can buy a decent gun pretty cheap which you could not do 2 years ago. paintball will start to grow with lots of kids coming though. The retail market is starting to grow as long as companys dont screw over the shops.

The sites do a lot to bring people in to paintball more then anyone else, maybe you can argue they dont do enough to keep people in paintball, which is proberly true (in some case) i think that is slowly changing i know Warren Maxwell has got 5 teams now he has brought in to paintball in the last 6 months (what a legend). there is a massive gap missing between first timers andtourny ball, but 15 years ago a crappy pump gun was like over 300 pounds talk about "barriers to entry" thats like a lot of money kids ;p.

Now there were a lot of genralisations there so please dont think i hate anyone i know people spend thousands on guns so dont take what i have said badly. Paintball is changing and as i say in a couple of years time economy permitting i think there will be a massive growth in the amount of regular players and millions of London Tigers everywhere from 12 - 18 yrs. I have what i think is a really good idea to get more people in to paintball under the age of 18 years old i think i have gone on enough for today ;D will keep you posted if it works.
 

Gyroscope

Pastor of Muppets
Aug 11, 2002
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Colorado
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Intheno, I wasn't aware of the "product dumping" in the UK. US brick and mortar retailers deal with similar problems competing with the internet outlets, but that doesn't squelch sponsorships for a whole country or continent.

What about back when the Angel was the gun every tournament player had to have? It seems like the UK should have had its salad days then, with enough sponsorship that at least one UK team could have had truly professional players. Has the market itself grown that much? If so, does Europe's market have that much farther to go? Or is it just a case of attitudes changing?
 

Ronnie Hollington

London Tigers #9
Aug 4, 2003
171
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28
Mayhem
www.mayhem-paintball.co.uk
i think the problem with the market was allowing people in it there is no middle market for paintballers allowing people to slowly get in to paintball its all or nothing. i think that the middle market is starting to appear but its going to take a lot of nurturing and loving.