Ramping - Robbo's Article in PGI 195

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Mark Toye-Nexus
I have played with Nexus against several teams last year that used ramping in the EXL. We were put at a severe disadvantage because we took a stance against its use and played unbouncy semi only markers.

Mark,

You seem to be a reasonable bloke so I just don't understand why you don't get it after what we went through last year. And I also can't put you into the category of those who try to keep the status quo from last year because you want to protect a cheating advantage,'cause I suspect there are many teams who are screaming just for that reason. I'm convinced that Nexus was one of the teams that did shoot semi-only last season.

I am still being castigated for the efforts we made last year to control bouncy guns (which DEFINITELY adds shots) and to try to catch cheater electronics. We were able to put a damper on excessive bouncing (at the expense of slowing the tournament down and in the midst of massive whining) but you KNOW we could not effectively stop the electronic cheating which resulted in the unbalanced and uneven playing field you encountered last season. And what has been reported from NPPL shows clearly that using a robot doesn't put a dent in the cheats any more than what we did last year.

If anyone wants true semi it's me because I have some trigger ideas that would be attractive on the marketplace IF we stuck with semi-only. I lose from the current situation.

For the umpteenth million time, present a VIABLE way we can make an even and fair playing field with semi-only rules. Until such an alternative is put forth then we must have an enforceable cap. If we must have a cap until a better idea comes along then how can we check, control and enforce semi-only? If we can't then it will be the same **** sandwich we had last year unless we allow electronic help UNTIL we find a better solution.

And let's find that solution now so we can get prepared for it to be implemented later, maybe next season.

BTW Mark, why hold back? Say what you really think. At least we can enjoy it until the fun police come down on you.

 

[Pikey_Steel_City_Chameleon]

personaly i think that ramping sucks, some people say it levels the playing field on rates of fire im guessing that there the guys that carnt rip there gun very fast cos there fingers fat stumpy and slow. i can fire my proto matrix very fast with both hands cos i practice at doing it, and another thing people that say that its not a skill to fire your gun fast ermmmmmmmm yes it is its part of the game get with it lose the ramping board and practice. later x

 

[Steve Morris]

It's really annoying as hell that people keep posting the same sushi without addressing the issue here: advantage for gun cheaters.

Sure, you can shoot fast if you practice but I could go onto the field with a cheater gun, under semi-only rules, and shoot the shizit out of you who have practiced for years. And I wouldn't get caught because almost only ignorant schmucks get caught in the current NPPL milieu.

Address the issue of fairness and suggest a way to bring that about if you want to make this a reasonble discussion.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Ideal world........... true semi-auto with no ramp/bounce. Capped ramp is actually not a step forward (technologically) as once a marker can achieve that...... what's the incentive to create, invent and improve? As long as it's 20 bps capable (most are now) it can easilly sustain 15bps. So why improve beyond that? Without the cap, faster rates were worth going for and some players could use this. The only thing worth improving now is efficiency.... why pay £1200 for this years top marker when last years is still ramping happily.

But, and it's a big but.......... how else can the gun cheats be stopped? All well and good saying ramping is bad and panders to the cheats, but what's the alternative? 15 marshalls to a field?
Ed 209 on the fifty with a radar chrony and minigun?

 

[Steve Morris]

Good say, Jose.

 

[mikie]

who remembers when adidas brought out the predator boots that would cirve the ball as long as you struk the ball on the top of you foot. the fa tried to ban them because it was classed as cheating and beining unfair. but then they ok it to level up the playing field.
footballers train for like 15 years to curve a ball. and then somone comes along with a shoe that changes everything.
is that fair?
are they still using them?
people will moan for a while like they did with pump to semi.
why dont we saving all this time and effort talking about ramping this and ramping that till the end of the season and then have a vote.

you cant turn round and say ramping is a bad thing becuse no one has given it a chance.
give it a year and then let the players decide what they want

 

[Ben Frain]

I can't for the life of me understand why we keep having this discussion. I had held off posting here until I had read Robbo's article. However, my postie still hasn't done his job so here goes anyway...

Baco Loco made the excellent point in a previous PGI that the only point of rules is to create an environment where the only tangible values between two competitors/teams are skill and ability (please excuse the paraphrasing). Never a truer word spoken.

Semi-auto rules do not currently create that framework. They are SO easily by passed it's not even funny.

The only possible way semi auto could work is by having sealed markers/boards that are administered to teams at an event from the organisers. However, this kind of thing is totally unviable (economically) so consider that a no no.
That said I also feel the current ramping rules are a joke because without the means to police a 15BPS rule there is no reaon not to go beyond it either (I would conjecture there are plenty of 15+ BPS chainsaws, even at a UK regional like the PA). There are so few of those Radar NXL gun things in euro land that there is no way they can monitor all the markers across multiple fields whilst they are in use so they may as well have stuck with a semi-only policy for the all the 'eveness' it has created. Are there enough of those devices in use in the NXL?

We are at a state of almost 'prohibition' like lawlessness in terms of marker cheats.

To create a level playing field it's imperative to have control of the rules.

But, no matter how I look at it I can't see semi-only being anything other than dead as a do-do. Reason being that until there is some way of measuring finger pulls to balls leaving the barrel IN GAME there is no way to police it. Therefore semi only rules DO NOT WORK to create a level playing field. Yes, it's ****, yes, I wish it was another way. But yes, that it is the reality.

So, with semi only out of the picture we are left with trying to control rates and speed of fire.

We can bring in a ROF cap by measuring (and subsequently policing) or limiting.

To measure you need enough measuring devices (them NXL guns I presume are what we need to do this?) so that you police the ROF rules you have created, meaning the probability of you managing to cheat is far outweighed by the probability of you being caught.

OR you can limit the ROF by the allowable devices for feeding the marker itself. As stupid as it sounds an 'agitating loaders only' policy would do that in a flash.

An agitating loaders only policy would render the majority of the benefits that ROF cheating provides useless. Why not consider it? Have any mode you like on your marker - you are never going to exceed 15BPS with a Revy.

In terms of velocity rules surely the only option is enforcement and to better do that more money must be spent to get them gun things the NXL use, no?

 

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Chicago
Most people are also not smart enough to realize that they're playing with fire, and at some point someone is going to get injured and they won't be able to play at all.

I'll be that injury waiting to happen as over 3yrs of playing although i have had my mask on i have had a ball go through my mask an chip my tooth. Had balls bend my flex7 back to reaveal my mouth and then balls go inside my mouth an hit the back of my throught (marshall didnt know what to do when i was coughing up blood!) and earlier this year hit so many times in the head that somehow my nose burst and i had quite a few hits on my face where the balls got through and under my mask.

An they came from semi and those markers were legall too (no bouncing or anything).
Now have only trained with ramping and i definately get shot with more balls than i do with semi so im not looking forward to whats gonna happen to me when i play a tournament with ramping!

Im gonna right my will now

 

[Mark Toye-Nexus]

I understand all teh arguments for 'fairness' ie we cant stop it so let everyone do it but this goes against what I believe.

The industry must be accountable and provide the players with boards that are designed for the rules; no modes.

The bouncing issue will re-emerge but it is my opinion that the MS were draconian in applying what was considered an 'advantage'.

How many chrono judges did we see nursing a gun in their lap and gently applying subtle pressure to triggers to make the gun bounce last year? And this after we were all told that there was a procedure that was more robust with the testing that better simulates in game conditions.

Gently cradling a gun whether or not it is on your shoulder does not happen in game. The odd bounced shot is far more preferable than ramping with its follow on shots after the trigger has been released for the last time - that is INSANE.

Accountability - that is the route - from the industry to start with, and then from the teams and the individuals.

Introduce the hard and fast rule and demand the industry complies with series standard boards. Employ a techno head to prove that they comply. Ban anyone found who has illegal boards, fine the team.

Just don't give in.

Only Milan seem to have caved-in in a bigger way recently

Mark

 

[Mark Toye-Nexus]

Originally posted by mikie
who remembers when adidas brought out the predator boots that would cirve the ball as long as you struk the ball on the top of you foot. the fa tried to ban them because it was classed as cheating and beining unfair. but then they ok it to level up the playing field.
footballers train for like 15 years to curve a ball. and then somone comes along with a shoe that changes everything.
is that fair?
are they still using them?
people will moan for a while like they did with pump to semi.
why dont we saving all this time and effort talking about ramping this and ramping that till the end of the season and then have a vote.

you cant turn round and say ramping is a bad thing becuse no one has given it a chance.
give it a year and then let the players decide what they want

They lightened the ball after this and I don't think many (if any) still use them.

Rules were changed in other areas to improve the game. Does ramping modes do this? Or does it just de-skill an important area of the game? That is shooting quickly (most can do that) but more importantly, quickly and accurately whilst running/tired etc.

I dont recall there being a question of whether lightened footballs contravened firearms regulations either