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Ramping - Robbo's Article in PGI 195

Pump'n'Splat

Ambassador of BOING!
Isn't subjectivity the fault at all sports though? A referee in football is just as subjective as a marshal in paintball. you only have to listen to any post-match pub analysis to hear how the ref made a bad call or handed out the wrong penalty...etc, etc.

The marijuana argument is an interesting one, but it's a decriminilisaton which has been made because it's been studied, the pros and cons have been weighed up, and in the end the Government have decided it's not the spectre of evil that it's made out to be. Marijuana is used by hundreds of thousands of people who don't then go on to become smackheads and even the police in a procedural document written back in the Eighties admitted they could see no clinical reason as to why it is a criminal substance...in fact decriminlisation is more about the fact that the safety element of marijuana isn't in question, it's not as damaging is a highly biased opposition want to make out

You can't really say the same about ramping, the pros and cons haven't really been weighed up, and the allowance of ramping has just come about because it seemed like the path of least resistance in a sticky situation of trying to enforce the rules. And Ramping has a safety issue attached...say the case of ramping was put before a panel of MP's, they were shown examples of it in the field, and they were asked to decide on legislation to accept ramping or just true Semi-Auto...could you say, with certainty that they would choose ramping?

I believe the answer is to ban ramping, and to put pressure on the industry which produces the equipment to stop producing anything which is against the rules of paintball (and potentialy the law). And the earlier comment expressing that if we want to take on the companies we might as well roll over now is just the kind of thing that prevents us, as the members of this sport, from getting together and stopping runaway advances that could kill the sport entirely. Consumerism can drive suppliers.

.I read in another thread about a type of security tag that can be produced and easily checked......what's to say that can't be adopted as an industry standard? Enforced by the UKPSF and the producers lobbied, along with a gentle reminder about airgun law within the UK and how it is likely to apply to a paintball marker if a safety case was ever brought into court. Or is it the case that no-one wants to say no to the corporations that happily take our money in the name of sport?

Stopping the boards even being available wipes out the whole "not enforceable on the field" question.
 

Chicago

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Jan 31, 2005
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Food for thought:

PSP camp:

Smart Parts
DYE
National

NPPL Camp:

WDP
Brass Eagle
System X
Tippman
Kingman


Which camp is better served by a semi-only rule, and which camp is better served by a ramping rule?
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
At the end of the day:

Originally posted by Chicago
Whether or not you think shot ramping is ok doesn't change what must be done:

Guns must have certified, verifiable boards. Even if you allow shot ramping, you still need certified, verifiable boards to stop velocity ramping and exceeding the BPS limit. Even if you allow unlimited full auto, you still need the verified board EVEN MORE to stop velocity ramping.

Giving into shot ramping now instead of adopting verifiable boards is just delaying the inevitable.
No general argument, Chicago, but that still doesn't respond to the here and now. Right now, the issue is how best to retain some semblance of game integrity.
As you pointed out elsewhere regardless of the rules in place we have ramping. One view is to do the best possible job of curbing abuses and containing the result. The other view is to refuse to acknowledge it's happening and carry on. Which one better serves the interest of the game?

AS to your camps--Where's PMI? And, it's obviously to the benefit of most in the NPPL camp to allow ramping, not vice versa.
 

Pump'n'Splat

Ambassador of BOING!
Re: At the end of the day:

Originally posted by Baca Loco
One view is to do the best possible job of curbing abuses and containing the result. The other view is to refuse to acknowledge it's happening and carry on. Which one better serves the interest of the game?
That's a very contrite statement Baca, and not really representative of the "other view"...I think it's more along the lines of:

One view is to do the best possible job of curbing abuses whilst allowing ramping. The other view is to disallow ramping and work out a way of curbing the abuse OF ramping.

No-one who argues against ramping wants to ignore it and carry on.
 

Dusty

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May 19, 2004
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in an ideal world the players who don't want ramping will make a stand and refuse to play whatever tournies are allowing it. unfortunately this is not an ideal world, and the only thing which is going to make a difference is a definitive statement by the government on whether shot ramping is legal or not.

i personally don't like ramping and will not be using it. i honestly believe someone is going to get seriously hurt by it, and then the brown stuff is going to hit the fan. one insurance claim, one serious injury and our favourite pastime is going to come under scrutiny the likes of which noone has seen before.

there is always one arse who overshoots everyone for nothing more than his/her own perverse pleasure. someone is going to get a lot of paint in the back/side of the head from close range. we have all been on the receiving end of a nasty one, which leaves a mountain of a welt. thats only from one or two. what about 10 or 12????? for me it doesn't bear thinking about.
 

Flash-Bugout

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Jul 6, 2001
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Originally posted by dusty
a definitive statement by the government on whether shot ramping is legal or not.
Thing is, even the honme office can't really define it - it's only once there's been a case run through the courts that there will be a definitive answer.

Anyone volunteering to be the test case?

Didn't think so.
 

JoseDominguez

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Originally posted by Baca Loco
The largest problem with the rules of pball is subjectivity because it leads to a lack of consistent enforcement. Adding a huge and hugely subjective extra burden on the refs isn't an answer that will solve anything. But, hey, it's your tourney dollar or pound or Euro and if that's what you want I'm sure there's someone prepared to give it to you.

An interesting parallel seems to me would the so-called war on drugs. For the argument against ramping substitute the legalization of marijuana and see if you're on the same side of both arguments. Just a little thought experiment.

Or, if you wish to stick with sports analogies try to come up with a rule change in another sport that would be of similar impact to ramping shots in Pball. For example, suddenly allowing the use of hands in futbol wouldn't be the same thing because it would change the game completely. If you can come up with a good sports analogy maybe it will put ramping into perspective.
Rmoving the foul status of a deliberate dive to win a penalty.......... everyone is doing it, but it's hard to spot when it's deliberate, so allow it........ that way those teams who don't do it as it's cheating can level the field.
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Re: Re: At the end of the day:

Originally posted by Pump'n'Splat
No-one who argues against ramping wants to ignore it and carry on.
But as a practical matter that is precisely what is happening and the result is, IMO, institutionalizing "cheating" and a greater evil than allowing ramping and using available methods to attempt to control it. Reasonable peeps can disagree but at the major league level it can't honestly be argued the semi-only rules have any impact whatsoever and as a consequence there is more disparity, more actual and functional cheating and faster guns rolling in the NPPL than the PSP.

dusty--there isn't a tourney series anywhere regardless of their rules that doesn't have guns that are ramping, adding shots, etc.

P&S--no, that wasn't a contrite statement.
 

Dusty

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yes that i am aware of. the problem is why? because the punishment for those caught in breach of the rules is not harsh enough to warrant certain players not cheating.

the solution is very simple. semi auto only and strictly. anyone in breach of this dealt with swiftly and severely.

ie ramping? cheating in any way? no problem chum. your team is now banned from the next 2/3/4 legs of my league and i will let the rest of the tourney organisers know to watch out for you.
 

JoseDominguez

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Nah, it's mainly because there is absolutely no way on earth to check every single marker and ensure that it isn't ramping... yes, you can hear a marker ramping if it's consistently hammering 25 for 10 pulls with experienced marshals.... but what about lower level ramping? Or less experienced marshals.
Then, even if it is spotted, you have to prove it..... increase the penalties? It won't discourage those prepared to win at all costs, and then the tourney has to weather the inevitable sh!t storm that follows....... better get CSI in to dismantle the marker, otherwise it's just an argument "it ramped" "no it didn't" repeat until bored.
Until paintball is controlled by a single, central governing body with real teeth and actual power. It's nothing, banned from a series for ramping? BIg deal, switch to one that allows it anyway........ while every tourney is in competition, all of this is academic.
In the UK we have another problem, all this discussion about how we eliminate and control gun cheats in our sport....... when in fact it's a hobby. Might as well talk about fines, penalties and bans for someone who ticked the lesser spotted grebe box when birdwatching and he hadn't really seen one.