Ramping - Robbo's Article in PGI 195

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Raffles
Agreed - but surely you can prove ramping the same way you can prove bouncing - ie. ref takes suspicious marker at end of game and tests it. Then the -50 and sosta comes in to play (or worse).

It would seem that if anything should have been learned from the hundreds of pages on this forum about ramping it is the fact that refs can almost never catch suspicious guns without knowing the "secret code" to unlocking the mode.

First we have to find a way to catch the illegal guns after they have aroused our suspicion.

 

[Dusty]

that is where we put our faith in the marshalls. i think even in semi auto a 15bps cap is more than sufficient, so if that could be made a rule then anyone going over that will stand out or be detected more easily.

who needs more than 15bps anyway, and more to the point who can honestly pull that on field in a game situation anyway??

 

[JoseDominguez]

Originally posted by Raffles
I wondered how long you would take to try and start up another 'have a go at Raffles' rant.

To take this off-topic (which you seem incessant on doing - again) - I was perm. banned by Russell Smith (as well as threatened with physical violence by him) - that's why I am no longer on the PA forum - that, and the fact that I don't even want to be.

Oh, and just for the record - I never did actually call you a dick - you misread that post totally. Immaterial now.

Bottom line is - I never agreed with ramping of any sort and I was persecuted for it (other PA forum members will testify to this). I was told by Mr. Smith that I "know nothing about ramping - so shut up!".

Anyway - I don't care anymore - I still don't agree with ramping - and I don't care whether you respect my opinions or not.

Enjoy...

You're in luck then. You weren't persecuted for your views at all. In fact, I don't like ramping either....... loads of players don't, only one spat the dummy and stormed off..... you aren't banned, proved when you came back as PA sux and that other one..... just no-one cared
The fact that you disagreed with ramping took a lot of the focus from the argument........ lots of potential posters just ignored the discussion and assumed it was just more Raffles vs the PA in his imagined conspiracy theory.
Anyway, proving ramping on the filed is one thing........ it's a refs decision, which is final, that can lead to on field penalties etc..... but proving ramping so a player can be further penalised? There are as many ways to activate cheat boards as there are cheats..... how do you find and prove that. And...... if ramping is this big dangerous potentialy illegal minefield, then surely it must be stopped before it happens? It's not just cheating if it's illegal, so it must be prevented, not cured after the fact.......... any ideas on that one? I still think the only way is a full strip of the marker by an experienced tech and analysis of the markers code......... absolutely impossible. Therefore, my real concern is this, is ramping is the big bad of paintball and is going to get it banned/reclassified etc.... then if we are really serious we must immediately stop using electro markers as the future of our sport is in jeopardy.
While we are at it, if we are going to start following the airguns section of the firearms act properly..

Under 17's may not buy (ammo) paintballs
Under 14's must be directly supervised when in possession of a marker, so no more rec-ball unless an adult accompanies them at all times.
No one under 17 may own a marker.

This is the same section of UK law that impacts on "auto" fire modes....... if we are going to worry about that, then we really need to worry about letting kids have these dangerous weapons, every site is breaking the law when they allow kids to play.
So, either, markers ARE under the law in which case cancel half of your bookings and start confiscating kids markers.
OR
Markers aren't covered, in which case this is all hot air.
That's the thing with the law, it's not a menu you can pick bits out of, it's either the full banquet or nothing.

 

[Pump'n'Splat]

every site is breaking the law when they allow kids to play.
So, either, markers ARE under the law in which case cancel half of your bookings and start confiscating kids markers.
OR
Markers aren't covered, in which case this is all hot air.
That's the thing with the law, it's not a menu you can pick bits out of, it's either the full banquet or nothing. [/B]

Hang on, aren't marshalls adults? Don't they supervise the use of the guns? Thought that was the point of marshals at recball

Don't get me wrong Jose, not knocking you, I just think that we already cover the law as far as the supervision goes.

The reams and reams of legislation i've read trying to get my head around ramping appear to alternately include and then exclude paintball markers. I think the legality is waiting in that grey area until an incident happens. Personally i'd like to see ramping put on the last boat to china before that incident has a chance to occur.

 

[JoseDominguez]

OK, so all marshalls are over 21 then yeah? As that's what the law requires, are the marshals aware that they are there to supervise the young players? And that's directly supervise mind you, so that's with them at all times, not just on the field but actually with them and watching what they are doing....... no one under 17 should be out of site and direct control of an adult (over 21). Does anyone sell markers to under 17's or paint? Do sites sell paintballs to children? If so and IF markers are airguns then the law is being broken (straight from the UKPSF website).
Basically, are there times when players under 17 are able to act without an adult with them? Is paint sold to them? etc.... etc....
Not saying that any of this applies, what I am saying is, that if we are going to get started on "ramping will get us banned" then I suggest everyone has a long hard look at the firearms act (not just the bits I've quoted or the bits on the UKPSF website...... get hold of the actual document).
I asked about solid rounds a year ago...... HO told me "firing anything other than paintballs from a marker would compromise it's status, putting it in a grey area which could only be decided in a test case"
I was told to stop stirring it........... so what's different here?
A marker firing full auto is still a paintball gun, put anything else in it, it is no longer a paintball gun....... definition changed, legal status altered. No one seems to give a toss about that though.

 

[bulldog2k]

At the end of the day:

Originally posted by Chicago
Whether or not you think shot ramping is ok doesn't change what must be done:

Guns must have certified, verifiable boards. Even if you allow shot ramping, you still need certified, verifiable boards to stop velocity ramping and exceeding the BPS limit. Even if you allow unlimited full auto, you still need the verified board EVEN MORE to stop velocity ramping.

Giving into shot ramping now instead of adopting verifiable boards is just delaying the inevitable.

I agreed totally with Robbo's article but reading this and thinking about it made me change my mind (thank you Chicago for making me re-evaluate). We have the ablity to do this. At the moment no one is making us. The only people who are going to drive this forward are us - me and the people reading this. We've all done a lot of moaning, but who's going to make this happen if not us?

Verifiable boards will be difficult and expensive to implement. And this change won't be 'fast'. But that's not a reason not to, is it? Companies serve capitalism and that puts us in power. We CAN do something about this. Or we can choose not to...

Originally posted by Chicago
Maybe we're going about enforcing ramping all wrong. Maybe it should just be a 25 point penalty that a ref can just call when he thinks you're ramping, and the PLAYER has to prove they arn't ramping by having a certified board. So you can either shell out your $35 or risk getting 25 point penalties all day.

Or do both - 25 points if the ref thinks you're ramping, DQ if the ref can prove you're ramping.

There's a principle behind this that works.

The actual penalties can wait - we can sort that. I'm not 100% sure about the 'deterent' principle - people just don't consider consequence. Otherwise, why would the US (with the death penalty) have the highest homicide rate in the western world? That's not to say we shouldn't penalise ramping harshly - just we should be realistic about why we're doing it (removing cheating rampers, not discouraging them)

(PS Jose - on the other thread, I was being ironic about correcting your grammar (and laughing at my own mis-spelling) - I don't think you got that?)

 

[stongle]

Jose, Raffles et al,

Please try and keep it vaguely down to Robo's article (although I understand the legal point you was making was vaguely relevent). Anyway, ramping.....

Surely allowing Ramping in the UK was a knee jerk reaction to a “phantom” problem? The vast majority never had cheat boards they had badly set-up guns, or rather guns they had deliberately set-up to give them subtle help?

Giving everyone instant ramping, and in some cases 1,2,3, then 9 free ones (with no volitional repetition of the 1,2,3) wasn’t the correct solution.

The correct solution was along the lines of what Chicago proposed: a penalty that could be pulled repeatedly but wasn’t harsh enough to provoke all the wannabe Attorneys and Lawyers in the team to get all Johnnie Cochran. Catching trigger Bounce was always fairly subjective and difficult with some refs better at it than others, however if the Ultimate had a rough idea a gun was Ramping that should just pull it and give a lowish penalty. People would soon get the idea. By being too harsh on the Ramping penalty, people will look to the next level of cheat: disguisable Cheat modes.

I don’t always think the US experience is always applicable to the UK due to our vastly different player populations, however Chi-Towns comments / ideas seem to be an avenue that should have been considered.

After watching a few UK tournaments post Ramping introduction and half the games are descending into anarchy. Half the teams you watch are playing on like mofo’s and using the moody run-through tactic to get eliminations (I mean they’re going to get pulled anyway so why not), but the base skill-set been eroded. Hardly anyone snap shoots or plays tight, hangout like an Octopus and shoot ropes, get hit and hey there’s always the run-through.

I suppose at the end of the day I just wanna go back and play with my mildly naughty gun, you know the ones we all had (that most of us could shoot at about 9-10 and get 14-17 out the barrel).

 

[Dusty]

would everyone want ramping if the bps cap was set at 12bps?? we can mostly achieve that anyway, but as stongle says, the core skills are going to fade away. everyone just wants to shoot lots of paint.

12bps is about the average you go up against anyway.

 

[stongle]

But a lot of the problem lies with the Refs and penalties for "cheating" or ramping. If some of the tournament promoters reckon there Refs couldn't pull a 1:4:1 correctly, your going to doubt their ability to catch Ramping or TB. Even if they do, given the doubt already placed you're going to fancy yourself a bit Johnnie Cochran no?

 

[mad dog]

See all this time and certain people are now quiet, its astounds me that we bow down sometimes to things because we totally do'nt understand them.

I have ranted and raved about ramping and its only now after Robbo's comments have people listened.

The core of paintball is at risk from not so much as ramping, which I still consider to be risky in the wrong hands but the whole structure of paintball as a whole if the basic skills are lost, finger etc, trigger control.

Believe this while its here and all the other forums its not going away until someone makes a stand and either gets rid of the issue, stops ramping, continues ramping but with strict laws and inspections, or heavens forbid even takes my idea of inspections random or not when you check bottles for test.

Then label them:

RED TAG.........disqualified inspected marker
AMBER............marker capable of ramping or cheating board or even mechanical bounce
GREEN............marker with full pass

These can be inserted on grips in the screw hole at the botom of the grip, then can be easily seen by the refs on field.

Penalties will mean point fines or something like that, players markers will be named and shamed on competition but the player will be allowed to continue the competition with a different marker.

But will have a 3 strike rule for conduct in events such as MM.

These are just thoughts as before but in some way these bring back the ideas of 10 second warning and down markers before games and makes marker inspection easy.

The seals will only need cracking for battery removal or board replacement. These can then be taken back to the refs inspection tent.

Yes in a big competiton this means a lot of inspections, but random testing can hopefully make this happen and no tag no play etc.

Just thoughts thats all, up to you to improve on my ideas. my personal view is ramping is wrong. It takes away skills and gives dangerous ones that took ages to develope for a top player, to a player who dos'nt understand the meaning of stop firing and why?