Pump guns or semis?

[Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK]

Pump X-Ball

I have never played pump, I'd love to give it a go. I fear that it'll always be somthing a little bit different for me and I'll always consider semi to be "real paintball". Though I'd love to be persuaded otherwise (it'd be a helluva lot chaper for a start!).

The reason semi dominates is that the paintball industry is driven by selling new toys and bucketloads of paint. To get a tournament together you need a site, air, a number of air-ball fields, netting, trade stands etc. To sort that all out you need sponsors to supply them. I think getting the backing for many pump speedball tournaments in this country (the UK) would be very difficult (though I keep hearing rumours about one from Alien..).

The idea of limiting the gear/rof/paint allowance for Am and Nov teams would not be popular, who wants to play Am-ball when you could play the same game as the pros. Like Jose, there are going to have to be some dead bodies before I'd give up my semis.

That being said, if anyone organised pump X-Ball in this county then you could count me in, it sounds like the best of all possible worlds.

Richard

P.s. Anyone seen Race-Gun's electro pump?

 

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

Heavens! I'm danger of being reasonable!

I kow the BPS debate has been going since semis emerged on the then dominant pump market, but you do have to wonder where the "need for speed" is going. 30 BPS fer chrissakes! Who's going to stick their head out into that? And what size hopper, gas source and podpack do you need for something that can empty a standard HALO in seconds? Surely some standardisation or equipment cap is inevitable.

Also, I've got a phantom pump rennovated from a second hand one bought at next to nothing. Many good pumps are out there for less than a frugal day's paint bill on a rec day. Although I'm aware more expensive versions are out there (cue Tyger's inventory . . .), you could get a pump team together with very little outlay - seems a good way to start people on the tourny circuit.

 

[Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK]

Originally posted by Jones the Paint Magnet
I kow the BPS debate has been going since semis emerged on the then dominant pump market, but you do have to wonder where the "need for speed" is going.

The need for speed is about having an edge over the oposition. always has been, always will be. If you can shoot more balls at the opposition than he can at you, all other things being equal, you'll win. Since there is a demand for faster guns, they are produced, sold and thus the industry supports formats that require the toys that they're going got make the most profit on.

Originally posted by Jones the Paint Magnet
30 BPS fer chrissakes! Who's going to stick their head out into that?

I think that's rather the point isn't it? After all that's what cover-fire is all about, getting the guy's head in so that your skinny simian friend can mug him...

Originally posted by Jones the Paint Magnet
And what size hopper, gas source and podpack do you need for something that can empty a standard HALO in seconds?

Um... ok, lets take a Revvy with 200 balls in, firing at a sedately 8 b.p.s. (Tyger, I seem to remeber you saying that you could do that with a pump...) how long does that take to empty? 25 seconds. in a 10 minute game that means that you could theoretcially empty your hopper more than 20 times! We already have battle-packs that can carry lots of pots of paint and we have 5000 p.s.i. systems...

Originally posted by Jones the Paint Magnet
Surely some standardisation or equipment cap is inevitable.

We used to have it, it was more of a gentleman's agreement than anything else. Then one manufacturer broke it (the 'timmy? I could be way off) and now everyone ignores it.

Richard

 

[Taperunner]

Originally posted by Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK
We used to have it, it was more of a gentleman's agreement than anything else. Then one manufacturer broke it (the 'timmy? I could be way off) and now everyone ignores it.
Richard

Doesn't that just poof how lame we are guys? Gentlemens agreement.. we are not in the driving seat as it is now. We are in the backseat and going where the manufacturers want us to go. And they are going to keep on driving just as long as the passangers silently rides on.

If the players could unite in a player organisation worthy it's name then we could get a real opinion of how people likes to compete in paintball.

The result of that opinion goes direct in as a rule in the Millenium series and to the manufacturers CEO.

We can let people vote on the internet, create polls and have debates just like this one. Then we have the players telling what they think is a good sport and how to attract an audience and the manufacturers can do what they do best, create the stuff we demand. (People would demand and use full auto if those where allowed, we just have to take it down a little bit furhter. We don't need Angel Speed to get action out there. We can have athletes to show speed instead and companies to provide us with the toys.)

We are beeing screwed in Europe as it is now. We play the most expensive type of paintball we can but without any money back. We aren't allowed to compete against the best teams, sorry guys but Dynasty isn't as good as people think they are. Dynastys domination in USA and here in Europe is a result of the creation of NXL.

The X Ball format but with pumps only, count me in!

 

[Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK]

I think you'll find that most 'ballers like semis and like the millenium format.

There is now a players association, the EPA (Piper, Goose and Mimi IIRC).

Um... Dynasty aren't the best team in the world? Then how did they manage to win just about everything last season? Sure some teams may beat them on occasion, they may even take a tourney off them, but Dynasty are the dominant team in paintball at the moment. Just because a team has been playing NXL doesn't mean that it is better than Dynasty. This debate is being had (or has been) on the NXL vs The rest of the world string.

Either way, you can't garuntee that US teams will come to Europe without giving them a show worth coming to (and that means hurting our pockets...). Right now the circuit to play appears to be the NPPL S7s, which is why the Ruskis and Nexus (among others) are playing them rather than milleniums.

X-Ball pump. Ok, all we need is 8 more guys, a field, 10 pump guns and a different set of rules/name so Richmond can't sue us/charge us for use of the name.

 

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

That's kinda my point. (Apart from catching 15 rounds or so in the noggin as a result of a mugging) Modern electros are so good at keeping people pinned, that tends to be all you see for a lot of games. Maybe it's different for X-ball though - I've yet to see a game.

The fact that general kit size has increased in both size and cost (tanks, hoppers, podpacks - try getting a 7oz tank these days, like hen's teeth) shows that increased rate of fire has altered the game. Get something that fires even quicker and everything will just scale up again.

I agree with the need for an edge - but if you standardize or cap the equipment via rules, then the edge has to come from the players and how they play. Although this wouldn't suit the manufacturers of the latest thousand- pound/euro/dollar/shiny bead gadget (lovely though they are), it doesn't necessarily follow that the game itself would suffer from the spectator viewpoint.

 

[Taperunner]

These discussions should really take place in the EPA fourm.

- Pumpmarkers on tournament level.
- Ball limit in the rookie or Nov. class.
- The X Ball concept and so on.

And some polls to get the opinion from the masses.

Then we can work out what kind of paintball we wan't to have at tournament level here in Europe. One thing is clear, we won't have european teams in the NXL just as little as we do in NHL, NBA and so on. The Millenium Series could be a league with it's own rules and have those rules to settle the international standard, with World Championship and so on.

Just look at the icehockey, we can't compete with the money in NHL but we play it in our style and people here loves it. We have bigger hockeyrinks in Europe than in NHL. The greatest money is in the NHL and with (due to that the best players) are in the NHL but the World Cup and Olymic Games have the european standards!
And still the interest for icehockey is bigger for the average euorpean guy than it is for the average us citizen (I am quite sure that aint a bold statement, no I didn't mention Canada..)

The european audience and the american audience have different expectations when they are going to watch a sportsevent. The typhical europeans love to watch Tour the France and biathlon but would just laugh and feels misplaced in front of the american wrestling shows.

Jones you seam to be a guy that can express yourself, can you create a few good posts to vent in the EPA forum about this?

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Tyger
Ahem.

1--You can play all pumps anywhere, including airball fields.

2--Point is that you can take the technology anywhere. Pumps slow the ROF down enough that players can move with some impunity, meaning they move more. Slow down the ROF, you get movement.

3--I've played all pumps on hyperball fields, it's NOT a game for the old guys, let me tell ya. I was winded in the first few minutes of running...

4--Overall point : Jones nailed it already. But, don't slam anyting untill you've seen it, or tried it. I've done both, it can work if given half the chance. Don't stereotype what you don't see.

-Tyger

I tried to ignore this thread, honest I did. But as this thing continues to stray from reality I feel an obligation to at least point out the mass delusion y'all are indulging in.
1--granted.
2--sorry but this is in same vein as limited paint argument. All less paint flying means is that less skilled players are encouraged to move when they would otherwise be intimidated into cowering behind their bunkers. Truth is top players and teams can and do move all over the field despite volumes of paint and there is vastly more skill and art involved than doing the same with pumps.
3--Let me say that 98% (being kind) of all paintball players aren't athletes at all except in the most generous definition of the term. Otherwise point 2 applies equally here.
4--if you guys think concept pump is the game for the masses then go for it.

I also agree that technology must be regulated but for a completely different set of reasons than any y'all have mentioned.

 

[Taperunner]

Ok, you are the one who know things I guess.

Originally posted by Baca Loco
2- [...]Truth is top players and teams can and do move all over the field despite volumes of paint and there is vastly more skill and art involved than doing the same with pumps.[...]

- The core essence in the concept of 'holding down' paint is to prewent people from move (or stick their head up) while some one else make a move on them. More people stick their head up and tries to shoot back while fired at in 3 bps then they tend to do while painted all over in 15 bps.

Originally posted by Baca Loco
3--Let me say that 98% (being kind) of all paintball players aren't athletes at all except in the most generous definition of the term.

- Well they would be if they had to. If movement, pace and physics where more importent. The X Ball format will boost for this, if you don't have any stamina then you will be to tired to be able to focus a whole game.

Originally posted by Baca Loco
4--if you guys think concept pump is the game for the masses then go for it.

Thanks!

I don't think the pumps will rule again but I do think that paintball as a sport would do good with lower ROF, longer matches, cheaper equipment, more athletic players, more movement. Watching a game today is great fun, but I am sure that it could be just as fun to watch let's say a X Ball game with all pumps. It would be easier for the judges also if we could bring the ROF down, it would be easier for the audience to follow what happend also. These paintballs flying are really hard to catch on camera you know

Originally posted by Baca Loco

I also agree that technology must be regulated but for a completely different set of reasons than any y'all have mentioned.

Which reason, I can see so many listed in this thread, let me hear your main argument!

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Taperunner
1--- The core essence in the concept of 'holding down' paint is to prewent people from move (or stick their head up) while some one else make a move on them. More people stick their head up and tries to shoot back while fired at in 3 bps then they tend to do while painted all over in 15 bps.

2--- Well they would be if they had to. If movement, pace and physics where more importent. The X Ball format will boost for this, if you don't have any stamina then you will be to tired to be able to focus a whole game.

I don't think the pumps will rule again but I do think that paintball as a sport would do good with (A) lower ROF, (B) longer matches, (C) cheaper equipment, (D) more athletic players, (E) more movement.

3--Which reason, I can see so many listed in this thread, let me hear your main argument!

1--making my point for me, thanks.
2--X-Ball does that without limiting paint already.
A--why, so that inferior players can compete? B--if longer is better why is everyone shortening the game times? C--you're actually talking less player expense, not necessarily cheaper equipment D--argument doesn't wash because it has been advances in the game that have propelled the demands placed on the players. Besides, your theory suggests the early days of paintball were filled with hard charging, athletic players and that's plainly incorrect. E--again, only makes it easier for inferior players to act. Now this might, I repeat, might create a less passive game across the spectrum of players but so what?
3--I was only trying to find some topic of general agreement. My principle point was ROF is far less important than, for example, how that ROF is achieved and creating benchmarks and standards that must be adherred to in order to assure fair play and safety.