Pump guns or semis?

[Weakest Link]

Never played with a pump but would like to try sometimes. Are there actually teams with mixed and if there are, how do the people with pumps cope against an electro. In response to the sponsorship deal, I think that once there is a Tv prescence in the sport, then it can change to how ballers want it, but we need the TVs first.

 

[Taperunner]

The industry doesn't support it.

I know that many people argue the same way you do but that think for yourself.

A company doesn't support anything others than it's owners/shareholders. No exeptions, they wouldn't exist if they did.

The only money in paintball today is the money that the players contribute with. Sure you can win a couple of grands at a big tournament but that means that several other teams walks home emty handed and with holes in their pockets.

The industry want's your money, and they want it today and not tomorrow. They don't care if you buy an Angel and a couple of boxes of balls today and quit playing next week, just as long as you bought something. They will find another one to fill the gap.

The industry have interests in the developement of paintball, that's a valid statement. They want to create consumers that are willing to spend. They don't really care if the format is X Ball, woodball, pump, full auto or what not. But they have realised that the higher BPS the more money, and we are still buying it (and quitting) and others are filling in.

If we want to have real price money and professional players then we must have incomes from TV and audience and that has n o t h i n g to do with how much money each team or player spends while practicing the sport.

Boxing, figureskating, soccer, marathon, curling the list can go on. All these sports have pros. and those who compete doesn't have to spend large amounts of money to train or compete.

If there is limits in BPS, balls or something has little to do with the survivel of the sport. That issue is within the hands of the player community much more than in the hands of the companies.

 

[Taperunner]

Originally posted by Weakest Link
Never played with a pump but would like to try sometimes. Are there actually teams with mixed and if there are, how do the people with pumps cope against an electro. In response to the sponsorship deal, I think that once there is a Tv prescence in the sport, then it can change to how ballers want it, but we need the TVs first.

Pump vs electro in speedball. Well the electro owns but the game when the guy with the pump bunkers and takes out the guy with the electro then he is a hero forever. And it does happen.

And I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[JoseDominguez]

So you realy believe the industry could fill the gap in profit if everyone switched back to using pumps? that's gonna happen......... all they need to do is charge £6.50 per paintball and we are laughing....... pump is fun, and yes it requires a different set of skills to semi, but the very fact that the majority of paintball is played with semis should tell you something. Oh, and I do think for myself, I happen to enjoy both, one as a good bit of fun and the other as the serious sport I love playing. At the moment there is room for both........ I'm playing STB two man this year...... once with a PTP and once with a pump...... We'll get mauled but it will be fun.
As for your arguments about darts/football etc... being cheaper....... well duh, of course they are how much can you actualy spend on a pair of shoes and a pointy stick? I noticed you didn't mention golf, motor racing or any of the extreme sports...... sports where kit development drive the sponsors and the game.
Paintball is kept alive by the independant site owners that got us all into the game............. convince them to switch to pumps and I'll sell my E-blade, Eclipse cockers, Eclipse shocker and pile of mags.............
Hell no, you'll take my semi's from my cold dead hands. But at the same time, I'm not going to tell anyone they're wrong to play pump or that it takes less skill or fitness...... each to their own.

 

[Taperunner]

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
So you realy believe the industry could fill the gap in profit if everyone switched back to using pumps?

No, I don't. Just as little as I play for the industry.

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
[...] that's gonna happen......... all they need to do is charge £6.50 per paintball and we are laughing....... [...]

No, they won't. The market demands cheaper paint and we are not dealing with one big company but with several quite small ones. The company that raises the price of paint won't sell any paint.

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
As for your arguments about darts/football etc... being cheaper....... well duh, of course they are how much can you actualy spend on a pair of shoes and a pointy stick? I noticed you didn't mention golf, motor racing or any of the extreme sports...... sports where kit development drive the sponsors and the game.

With your argument there wouldn't be such a thing as a cheap sport, cause the industry demands otherwise. A full golfbag ain't cheap, but the golfball industry is satisfied with the fact that the players just hit one ball per shoot. Annika or Tiger makes does get much money from other companies than from those who sells clubs and balls. You got the audience and the TV.
And to the motorsport, wich one are we speaking of? Do we really want to make Paintball to IRL? Expensive cars that few can afford to ride and not to many gives a d_mn about the results or do we wanna have it more like Go Cart or Touring Car Championship?

Aha, Formula 1..?

In motorsports you will find different levels from very cheap, where money doesn't matter much up the a level where you can only dream to be.

But in competition paintball you have almost no stages between the Formula 1 level or the Go Cart level. Same equipment, same BPS and same amount of balls are allowed to be spent.

If you want to compete in paintball at the best level you can then you will go bankrupt if you doesnt chose the pro level and win the tournaments (and live on the other players expense).

So why not:

Make the following changes in the Millenium series (which will affect a lot of the regional series as well).

7 man (cash to the top 4 teams. Todays fee to participate.)

Todays Pro. no changes.

Todays Am. Ball limit 2000 balls/team and match

Todays Novice Ball limit 1600 balls/match No elektros allowed only 'semis' (hope you understand what I mean).

Introduce:

Mixed 5 man series (no price money, relatively cheap to participate compared to the cash series, still money enogh to the host thoug.)

Pro Mixed ball limit 800 balls/team and match + 100 balls for each pump in the team and + 50 balls for each woman in the team.

Am Mixed ball limit 500 balls/team and match + 100 balls for each pump in the team and + 50 balls for each woman in the team. No elektros allowed only 'semis' or pump.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Ok then........ you can buy a decent second hand kit for £400 and play a tournament for about £60............. what level of motorsport can you get for that? Scalextric?
As for football........ that's kept afloat by charging extortionate prices to watch/wear shirts.

When I say industry, I mean everyone who makes a living at paintball, not just the big companies......... how many sites could run pump and make enough profit to stay afloat?

break it down...... one player say £15 hire fee and 1000 balls... so around £80 total using a semi....... as opposed to £15 and 100 balls so £22, which means attracting 4 times the players to make anywhere near as much profit...... plus taking on extra marshals and finding enough space. can't happen............ yes in an ideal world, but if everyone switched to pump would anyone bother to make paintballs anymore?

 

[JoseDominguez]

"Compare with dart, (you know tossing arrows at a board) there not much money to the industry per game there. But still this weekend is 130 persons competing in front of the TV cameras in Bolton, and the winner walks home with 50 000£" taperunner


Cool, maybe we could get sponsored by a tobaco firm too?

 

[Taperunner]

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
Ok then........ you can buy a decent second hand kit for £400 and play a tournament for about £60............. what level of motorsport can you get for that? Scalextric?

In Sweden we got something called 'Folkrace' where you compete with junk cars. It's very popular. If you win and someone want's to buy your car for a amount of what I think is accually less then £400, think it is something like 5000sek, then you have to sell it!
Scalextrix, that's expensive

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
When I say industry, I mean everyone who makes a living at paintball, not just the big companies......... how many sites could run pump and make enough profit to stay afloat?

Sure they can, you said it yourself but as a negatiation. Attract more players. People at a site doesn't just buy ball, they buy markers, something to eat, a jersey and so on.

We did have several parks in Sweden when all with pump markers when the semis was forbidden here.

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
break it down...... one player say £15 hire fee and 1000 balls... so around £80 total using a semi....... as opposed to £15 and 100 balls so £22 [...]

Sure let's break it down shall we.

First let's set the amount of balls straight. When I worked at a site and rented out markers the average Joe Smoe used 300 balls when the semis arrived the amount raised to 500.

People have a fair limit of what they think is enough to spend on a weekend activity. We charged approximately the same amount for 300 balls back then as we do for 500 balls today, the balls have become cheaper.

And now to our marginals, that's what counts.
The markers are very soon paid for (5 or 6 rents) so the profit from renting out a marker is the same. Let's say 15£.

Now to the balls we sell them for 0.7 sek and buy them for 0.3 that makes a 0.4 sek per ball in profit 120 sek or about 7-8£ that makes 22£ down the pocket for a pump rent.
and 27,5£ for a semi rent.

So the profit for a pump rent is 22£ and for a semi rent 27.5£
the big difference is how much we charge the customers, 28£ for a day with a pump and 37£ for a semi day.
(I don't work with this anymore so the figures are based on comparision)

If you can attract just 1,5 times as many people by renting out pumps then you will make more total profit to your park. Don't just count the balls.

Of course as you wrote this wont happen becouse as people wan't the money quick so if they can attract 1.5 times as many people they'll just go semis with them, charge the hell out of them and lose the opportunity to have them come back again and again and agian.

 

[JoseDominguez]

I think we need to leave this discussion here before it damages the UK scene...... I'll PM you mate...... bit of an international thing going

 

[Taperunner]

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
Cool, maybe we could get sponsored by a tobaco firm too?

ZAP or a tobaco firm, is it really any difference? They both profit on your demand....