PSP's new 15 BPS rule

[7lash]

Yes, the black box would compare trigger activations against solenoid actuations. It would also monitor solenoid actuation times (dwells) in order to combat ramping velocity.

The units could be manufactured in volume quite cheaply.

One way to cheat the box is to connect it to something other than the trigger and/or solenoid, hence the need for random visual spot checks. Another way to cheat is to replace the black box with one of your own, hence the need for unique marking. Otherwise, it is pretty difficult to cheat the box as it completely bypasses the circuit and software, and one of the biggest problems for scrutineers is that they cannot 'see' software.

Interfacing to the solenoid is pretty straight forward as most guns connect the solenoid to the board through a connector. Interfacing to the trigger switch is a little more difficult as some guns (including ours) have the switches mounted directly onto the circuit boards (I never said that it was a perfect solution ).

 

[John C]

To catch a cheat

Originally posted by 7lash
I've not read all of these threads so this may have been suggested before, but what if.....

Each tournament organiser commissions the use of 'black boxes' which are programmed to detect cheats in an electronic gun by monitoring the trigger and solenoid drive signals.

The black boxes are sealed, self powered, low cost modules about the size of a postage stamp which can be adhered to the side of a gun and which utilise flying leads that piggy-back the solenoid and trigger connectors on the circuit boards of any gun. A highly visible led on the black box indicates a detected cheat.

The black boxes are programmed to enforce the rules of any particular event and are handed out at the start of the event with the team packs. They can be marked in a non-replicable way by the event organisers.

The black boxes are fitted by the players, or by event approved techs.

Spot checks throughout the event can be used to check that the black boxes have been correctly connected. Rules can be put in place to deal with black boxes that 'fall off' during a game.

What about mechanical guns? Well this method clearly would not work, but the 'cheats' in these guns are much easier to find using traditional methods.

It wouldnt pick up any kind of contact bounce as cheating because the output from the switch would still match up with the number of shots fired.

What about guns with integrated trigger mechanisms for example the WDP board? On that design it would be impossible to tap into the trigger with flying leads.

Sounds like a lot of work for a very limited system.

 

[manike]

To catch a cheat

Originally posted by 7lash
Each tournament organiser commissions the use of 'black boxes' which are programmed to detect cheats in an electronic gun by monitoring the trigger and solenoid drive signals.

The black boxes are sealed, self powered, low cost modules about the size of a postage stamp which can be adhered to the side of a gun and which utilise flying leads that piggy-back the solenoid and trigger connectors on the circuit boards of any gun. A highly visible led on the black box indicates a detected cheat.

The black boxes are programmed to enforce the rules of any particular event and are handed out at the start of the event with the team packs. They can be marked in a non-replicable way by the event organisers.

The black boxes are fitted by the players, or by event approved techs.

Spot checks throughout the event can be used to check that the black boxes have been correctly connected. Rules can be put in place to deal with black boxes that 'fall off' during a game.

It's a nice concept Flash, but at what point do you pick up the trigger signal?

Before or after it's 'debounced'? How would that work with the opto triggers and their trigger threshold?

And whats to stop someone using a signal generator before your pick up in order to beat the black box?

Ultimately that's how people used to get some modes with the Angel LCD but still have it show the semi only mode. They simply piggy backed a simple chip that added shots but the board still thought it was getting genuine inputs.

If you can find a way to overcome those issues, then great.

I see it could be possible, maybe, if the black box itself housed the physical trigger switch and then wires went from that to the gun board, and then others monitored the solenoid.

This is a better approach than the single 'certified' board idea though.

The trouble then is the cost of implementation, and the way that all guns would need to be designed to accept this 'black box module'.

It could be done... but time and cost intensive.

 

[Chicago]

To catch a cheat

Originally posted by 7lash
I've not read all of these threads so this may have been suggested before, but what if.....

Each tournament organiser commissions the use of 'black boxes' which are programmed to detect cheats in an electronic gun by monitoring the trigger and solenoid drive signals.

The black boxes are sealed, self powered, low cost modules about the size of a postage stamp which can be adhered to the side of a gun and which utilise flying leads that piggy-back the solenoid and trigger connectors on the circuit boards of any gun. A highly visible led on the black box indicates a detected cheat.

The black boxes are programmed to enforce the rules of any particular event and are handed out at the start of the event with the team packs. They can be marked in a non-replicable way by the event organisers.

The black boxes are fitted by the players, or by event approved techs.

Spot checks throughout the event can be used to check that the black boxes have been correctly connected. Rules can be put in place to deal with black boxes that 'fall off' during a game.

What about mechanical guns? Well this method clearly would not work, but the 'cheats' in these guns are much easier to find using traditional methods.

Patent-encumbered technology.

 

[7lash]

Patent

I should have known Please elaborate and save me the searching.

 

[7lash]

Quick Answers

John,
I believe that it is possible to filter electrical bounce. They do it in many applications.
I agree that the WDP unit is a problem - but nothing is impossible!

Simon,
You would need to pick up the raw trigger input. As soon as this signal reaches the circuit board it is potentially compromised. Thresholds can be handled if the analysis is analogue, not digital.
Signal generators I need to think about. You could possibly use the unused NC contact of the trigger microswitch for isolation, but Optos would prove more difficult. Piggy backed hardware should be relatively easy to spot, I'm more interested in what cannot be seen.

I really don't see it being that expensive. Will you be in LA? Maybe a few beers could provide some answers

Constructive criticism is good guys - bring it on!

 

[Chicago]

Ya know....

I think I've got it. (Thanks to 7lash for getting me thinking in the right direction.)

Why bother going through all the work of being able to put a monitoring chip in there?

If you're going to require that you be able to hook up a chip between the trigger output and the solenoid input, etc... why not just require that the promoter can temporarily replace the board's control chip with another one?

Require a standard board, or at least that boards meet a certain standard. To meet the standard, the board:

- Must have only one control chip.
- The chip must be located in a socket where it can be easily removed/exchanged for another chip of a to be determined type.
- Require people to use an approved chip when they play your event. You can provide them, or have a list of approved ones, or whatever.

If you think a player may be cheating, just pop the chip out and check and see if it's one of yours (read out the software, whatever). Also check and make sure there arn't any "extra" chips in there. When the player is done with the event, they can go put whatever chip they want back in there.


Boards may be expensive, but chips are cheap. Hell, several boards out there already have replacable chips.


Best part? No worries about patents covering communicating with "control units" in paintbal guns, since it's the control unit itself that your popping out.

Granted, this isn't as CONVENIENT as being able to quickly plug into the gun to check if a chip is legal, but it's definitely something that is 100% enforcable, so you can use that in conjunction with stiff penalties and a "pay to check" (you pay $X to have your opponents equipment checked and forfeit it if it's legit) system.

 

[Baca Loco]

I like the concept--but I know just enough about this subject to be dangerous. Think I have cobbled a couple of "issues" but they aren't deal breakers. Any solution will entail some adjustments. Besides, I could as easily be mistaken.

Will be looking forward to how others take to it.

 

[John C]

Quick Answers

Originally posted by 7lash
John,
I believe that it is possible to filter electrical bounce. They do it in many applications.
!

On a normal swich yes, but if you were trying to cheat you could mod the switch so that it will bounce like crazy when it gets going. There are even guides on how to do, it on pbnation I think

 

[Furby]

I do admit to being a bit suprised that WAS is acting like a bastion of virtue, but things are just crazy out there these days.

Rosie's response to him was intersting as well...hopefully I'll be given permission to publish it.

Awfully fun being Muckraking Press Scum sometimes...