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PRO VS PRO Superleague

sjt19

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Originally posted by gaff
i will be the first to admit that we are not in the top bracket of the World Pro teams
Then there is your answer. The superleague should be exclusive, hence the word 'super'. If it was open to everyone then it would just be a league!

The idea to market the format to the TV peeps is that the league will feature the best of the best, not the best of the best plus 30 or so other teams. Thats basically what it is at the moment, with everyone potentially playing everyone.

The fact that Storm have not played many events this year, only 3 millenniums is unlucky, but someone will always be left unhappy. Unfortunately this time it is Storm, and they wont be the only people left in the cold. The promotion relegation would give you a chance to be in the league in the 2k5 season.
 

agge

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OK

First I have to say that I have not read through all posts on this matter, so I´m sorry if this has already been discussed.

I expressed my opinion on a Swedish discussion board conserning the discussed league but thought I could share my thoughts with you all.

I believe that Europe should not have a league based on exclusivity, like the NXL. The reasons for this are many, but the most imortant one is that it could well kill the sport in the countries that would´nt have a "superteam" to represent them.

Everyone that are serious about the game wants to play on a toplevel team. If I would be from a country that did not have a team already in the superleague, how would I ever be able to reach to the top? It´s easy done in the US, cos there everyone comes from the same country, speaks the same language, eat the same donuts etc etc... But here, with different languages it would be impossible for a guy from for example Poland to get on a team from England...

So for the sport to grow and for the companies to make more money, which will then transfer into more sponsorship money for us the players, the series need to make shure that every little player on every local field in every single country that is Europe has the same fair chance of one day becoming a star on a superteam. And if you catch my drift then this could (in my opinion!) only be done by having a league where every team has the same chance of advancing into that league...

/ agge Ignition
 

sjt19

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Sam and Gaff

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
It would do this debate good, if it was not about individual teams !

As soon as someone says "we should be in that" and someone else says "no you shouldn't", this becomes a matter of pride.Nick
True, i do think that in order for the format to be recognised as the best it needs to have the best teams in the world in it. If it is to be 16 teams then the top 16 teams from the WPS should be the first 16 to be invited. If one of them cannot accept the spot then it falls to the next placed team and so on.

Robbo, i was under the impression that it would be 6 American teams and 10 European teams? I am probably wrong, (as usual:) ) but are there 8 US teams that would travel to Europe 3/4 times next year? Only Dynasty, Bushwackers, Strange and Bad Company made the trip over this year. Excluding Effect, 2 GZ teams and Ironmen who aren't gonna be in the Super league for obvious reasons. Would the likes of Naughty Dogs travel? Who else would be in the 8? Rage? Brass Eagle? Jax? Are there even 8 world class US pros outside of the NXL?

The Super League needs to be promotion and relegation in order to give the Div 1 teams and Div 2 teams something to strive for.:)
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
I've stayed out of most of this as I don't know all the particulars but would like to offer a couple of comments.
The latest concerns and ideas suggested by Nick and others seems to make a fair amount of sense in light of the tremendous time crunch involved.
Even if the SupaLeague eventually ends up following the Sergei model as Robbo prefers does it follow that every element of the model needs to be in place immediately?
If the S-League is looking to 2005 to make the BIG leap isn't the most important element of 2004 getting the basics in place and making sure it more or less works as hoped for?
Could some variation of Nick's suggestions be used to in 2004 to lock in the teams for 2005?

One other factor that hasn't been much discussed is the actual SupaFormat. It's all well and good to practice play some variations and see how it turns out but a) you won't know how it functions in real competition until there is real competition, and, b) how many of the potential teams have clue one about what they may be asked to commit to in very short order.

If the NPPL is gonna be involved they have some serious questions to ask themselves, too. How many teams made the move to Super 7 because it was more in tune to the kind of tournament they wanted to play than the much altered PSP? Now the subtext suggests fundamental changes to the NPPL, too, that haven't even begun to be discussed widely yet over here.
 

Wadidiz

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Here’s what Millennium should do IMO:

Make Joy Masters a pilot for the new format and series.

Open the pilot to the first 16 teams that pay their entry fees. Why 16? The format will be a lot neater and run a lot smother with a rounded-out double-elimination schedule. (I can elaborate more later if necessary.)

Make sure that the new format is great and that it is properly executed.

If the format is great and properly executed then the top teams will line up to participate.

Fine tune and adjust thereafter based on feedback from all involved and interested.

Steve
 

gaff

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Mar 12, 2003
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Robbo/Nick/Steve

Originally posted by Robbo


I think you have let your feelings on the subject cloud your judgment on that one mate.


i think you may be right there i got a little caught up in the cause!!:)

if you want to understand my perspective almost to the word read Nick's post below, it explains nearly to the word what i beleive should happen next season....

1. alllow teams that are commited to enter (dont limit numbers)
2. but ensure that they accept that they have to play x times
3. have the promotion relegation system working
4. as Nicks says if we have a 'superleague of 20 -22 teams then any NXL marketing will look decidedly small in comparison
 

Robbo

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Sam, I have no idea where u get ure info from but I doubt the US entry list would be limited to 6 teams when it is they who hold the majority of aces when it comes to getting this World Series pacakage on TV.
We are a$$hole lucky to be even talkin about parity here.

But I do agree with the idea of divisional Superleague even though it does conflict with the Sergei proposition because in effect it undermines the value of any future franchise alloacations, this would be one of the fundamental departures from the blueprint that I would back as it sits better with the European way of running leagues as against the American locked in model.

Paul, you are right, 'crunch time' is almsot impractically short but this time scale hasn't been selected, it has to a certain extent been imposed upon us due to the success of the NXL.

Sergei's main reason for coming up with this proposal was one of survival.
He believes that inaction on our part would lead eventually (3 to 5 year time span) to a trickle down demise of the Millennium and NPPL circuits as the NXL format takes hold.
On that note, time is of the essence and no doubt we will get things wrong but we need to kick off in the right direction and grasp a few nettles.
This time last year, our inaction cost us dear because we did not see the long dollar even though enough people had their arc lights out showing everybody concerned.
I don't think we have the luxury of time to iron out all the problems we are gonna encounter, you can't apply the normal rules of process to this new league and therefore the process is not going to be robust enough to be able to deflect all the criticism from all the teams etc.
Essentially you are right regarding getting everything in place in 2004, there is no absolute need other than to emulate as colsely as possible the final working model.
All I am doing is expressing my opinions here, I have no idea what the final decisions of the Millennium and NPPL are going to be.
I suppose if i think about all this, then I have to hold my hands up and admit to being impressed with a vision, Sergei's vision, he alone anlaysed the marketplace in terms of tournament and televised paintball and came up with not only what i believe to be a correct risk assesemnt but also came up with a series of answers that can help us.
It is up to us if we choose to act on his analysis and proposal.
This may sound sarcastic but I swear I am not being so but I would much rather listen to (and be enlightened by) somebody who has a proven track record in assessing corporate and business risk than any of the so called experts we have within our ranks when it comes to planning our future.
 

Wadidiz

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I can't help but agree with so many points and counterpoints at the same time, but...

It's better to get things ironed out properly first rather than being on-time for the first tournament in the World Series.

Joy Masters is coming up fast. Realistically it probably won't be such a gigantic tournament. Use the first one as the pilot and we will still have 5 tournaments left, which is the same amount NPPL has in total. And maybe the pilot will be the standard for the rest of the series anyway and it could count in the series (that should be the goal).

If less than, say, 12 teams pay by a pre-determined deadline then go with 8 for the pilot.

The reason for 8 or 16 is: 16 teams in a double-elimination schedule would fit very easily into one field (a showcase field with staging, chrono, compressor, scoreboard in place) and 3 days. 8 teams would do the same and only take a day and a half. This schedule is based upon the format I hope Mil goes with (not at all a certainty).

A lot of time-consuming work yet needs to be done:

sorting out the format

sorting out the infrastructure, including scoreboard details

recruiting and organizing reffing, because good reffing is paramount to success

recruiting the personnel who would guarantee the uniformity and continuity (if neccessary)

sorting out the rules

designing fields that would be good for the format

contacting and consulting with teams

We need to get moving quickly but buy more time to realistically get this sorted. This is easier said than done because the decision-makers are all very busy and it is difficult to assemble them.

Am I out to lunch here?

Steve
 

gaff

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Mar 12, 2003
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Originally posted by Robbo

It is up to us if we choose to act on his analysis and proposal.
This may sound sarcastic but I swear I am not being so but I would much rather listen to (and be enlightened by) somebody who has a proven track record in assessing corporate and business risk than any of the so called experts we have within our ranks when it comes to planning our future.
i have yet to hear what Segei's proposal is in its entirety, so i cannot comment on its content, but for you to hold such high regard for a guy and his proposals it must be pretty positive. my view is that any genious (sergei in this instance) needs their ideas tweeking and manipulated to find a truely perfect and workable form. there are quite a few points raised on here that i think would act as such 'tweeks'

when and how will we get the final decision of the format and teams invited or allowed to commit? any ideas?
 

Wadidiz

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Steve & Robbo

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
1) It will mean that no team knows what it will be playing in 2004 until earliest in the end of February

2) I firmly believe these things have to be decided on NOW - and don't think it is that hard.

The proposed game format is more or less in place - just neads a bit of tweaking - and the league structure is also being discussed rigorously..... the MS and NPPL could get this sorted out in a week, if they wanted to !
Nick,

I certainly agree with the second part of your post!

1) I think that even if we agree on the format now there is going to be tweaking of it anyway. Let's just say so now and plan to tweak it as neccessary and as Baca suggests. Whatever the case, and even though there are good arguments for a more elite way of doing it, I still think that it needs to be open to the first 8 - 16 that pay. At least for this season. I go with Gaff's arguments and I also believe it is too early for setting the SuperPro league now.

2) I wish I had your optimism concerning getting something decided so quickly. Remember, the board doesn't plan to meet again until some time next month. And it won't be easy for them to decide anything then anyway, since so much depends on what is decided by NPPL and Pure Promotions.

If the new format is as good as I hope it will be and if Millennium makes the commitments to quality (like I've heard they intend to do) then the SupaLeague will attract the top teams. If the scheduling is set up like I've suggested then there will definitely be exciting games to watch and televise.

And what about those important organization and logistical elements I listed? You know they will take time.

Steve