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PRO VS PRO Superleague

gaff

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Nick

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
...I think most Pro teams are right now talking to their sponsors and potential sponsors for next season.

Obviously most of them will hold off on accepting deals, until this is all sorted out - and as such you are right.

The Millennium Series and NPPL need to get this sorted out in a matter of weeks - especially with Joy and Huntington Beach not far of.

Otherwise this will just be another X-ball farce !

All this dialogue could have taken place months ago - as many people called for... so NOW is the time the Series promoters need to prove they are able to move FAST - or alternatively let another year go by without major changes.

Nick
Absolutely!!! and they could then set up strict guidelines for qualification, that everyone has the opportunity to prepare for!

The only truely fair way to do it in my opinion! and also the only way that we as a sport are not going to look like complete amateurs!!!
 

Wadidiz

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Nick has come up with some well-thought-out suggestions but...

it is very difficult to have a thorough and beneficial discussion when we don't know exactly what the new format is. There are just too many variables for second guessing.

I've been making some suggestions at least partially based on some ideas that I've put forward and some guessing about which parts MAY be under consideration. But I really have no clue which parts, if any, are being seriously considered.

Here are some of the factors that have to be kept in mind when discussing this:

1. What might happen between Millennium and NPPL S7.

2. Which teams might be available that aren't going to NXL.

3. What resources will be set aside concerning fields, time, judging crews, compressors, etc. for the Premier League. In other words, what will the promoters be willing to spend at the various tournaments.

4. What sponsors are interested in doing or willing to do.

5. Which teams would be invited to participate if it was invitation only.

6. The impact on pro teams not invited.

7. The impact on the "lower ranks" who are VERY significant since they pay the lions share of entry fees. Will they accept NOT playing outside their divisions?

8. How the Premier League will be implemented so that uniformity and quality is guaranteed, especially considering the political and personality conflicts that came up this year regarding the Nations Cup.

9. How the PR side of this project will be handled since media attention is one of the main goals.

I'm sure there is much more that I haven't thought of.

Robbo's probably right: there's probably no use mucking about. At least until there is more meat on the bones.

Steve
 

Robbo

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This ain't gonna be settled till after two meetings have taken place in the next couple of weeks, if the signs ain't right for Sergei, in terms of the Millennium moving in the right direction, then I'm pretty sure we ain't gonna be seeing him play NPPL or Millennium next year, just my opinion or rather fear.

If we fack about, pussy-footing, sitting on the fence, trying to please everybody, then we will just re-run the X-Ball fiasco of last year and make an even bigger mistake than last year when we declined the X-Ball World series offer.

Things have to move fast, we have got the necessary brains and expertise to effect the necessary changes; the political resolve is wavering at the moment with certain parties looking at short term interests rather than the long dollar requirements of European paintball as a whole.

The compilation and organisation of this Superleague is just one piece of an extensive overhaul that needs to be done and needs to be done rapidly.
Mistakes are going to be made because we have painted ourselves into this tight corner but we MUST move in the right direction and do it quickly.
 

gaff

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Mar 12, 2003
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Robbo/Nick/Steve

i agree 100% in what you are all saying, i am just a little concerned at the timescale we have to implement these enormous changes! and also as Steve points out in one of his points what impact the remaining unhappy Pro teams and lower division teams will have to endure.

yes we need to make this Pro in its true form, be recognised as a true sport, like basketball, football, etc, etc but it will be pretty feeble if you only have 16 teams playing these events cos you have pi$$ed everyone else off and they are playing domestically only.

a suggestion may be that the first two millennium events of 2004 are used to 'find our feet' and use the scores from these events to pick the select few, at least then everyone invovled will get an equal crack at it, and it will also see just who is really commited to the series.

just to finish, if these massive changes are made between now and xmas, and they are then implemented for the February Millennium in Sweden (which incidently is not getting great support in other threads) then anyone picked to play this 'new format' and 'new game' will have to be running to stand still in preparation for it!
 

Robbo

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Robbo/Nick/Steve

Originally posted by gaff
i agree 100% in what you are all saying, i am just a little concerned at the timescale we have to implement these enormous changes! and also as Steve points out in one of his points what impact the remaining unhappy Pro teams and lower division teams will have to endure.

yes we need to make this Pro in its true form, be recognised as a true sport, like basketball, football, etc, etc but it will be pretty feeble if you only have 16 teams playing these events cos you have pi$$ed everyone else off and they are playing domestically only.

a suggestion may be that the first two millennium events of 2004 are used to 'find our feet' and use the scores from these events to pick the select few, at least then everyone invovled will get an equal crack at it, and it will also see just who is really commited to the series.

just to finish, if these massive changes are made between now and xmas, and they are then implemented for the February Millennium in Sweden (which incidently is not getting great support in other threads) then anyone picked to play this 'new format' and 'new game' will have to be running to stand still in preparation for it!

Gaff, and exactly how far down the line do we go in accommodating teams?
You see the problem I hope ?

As for the timescale ?
To a certain degree this has been imposed upon us due to the impending televising of the NXL, if we are to compete, then we need to get our fingers outa our ass, get our fingers outa all the political pies and get moving, sticking as closely as possible to the Sergei blueprint.
I absolutely disagree with you saying the league is somehow 'feeble' because a few pro teams are supposed to be pissed off, how the heck does that manifest itself in either the integrity and running of any Superleague or in fact, the Millennium / NPPL tournament circuit that is not playing Superleague.
As I see it, Ton Tons, RL, Joy and Nexus were the only teams to travel Stateside NPPL this last year so I can't see too many teams being pissed off that they are now only playing domestic tourneys and if any teams do start bitching about this then it's gonna sound pretty hollow bearing in mind they never played Stateside at all this last year.
 

gaff

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Re: Robbo/Nick/Steve

Originally posted by Robbo
Gaff, and exactly how far down the line do we go in accommodating teams?
You see the problem I hope ?

As for the timescale ?
To a certain degree this has been imposed upon us due to the impending televising of the NXL, if we are to compete, then we need to get our fingers outa our ass, get our fingers outa all the political pies and get moving, sticking as closely as possible to the Sergei blueprint.
I absolutely disagree with you saying the league is somehow 'feeble' because a few pro teams are supposed to be pissed off, how the heck does that manifest itself in either the integrity and running of any Superleague or in fact, the Millennium / NPPL tournament circuit that is not playing Superleague.
As I see it, Ton Tons, RL, Joy and Nexus were the only teams to travel Stateside NPPL this last year so I can't see too many teams being pissed off that they are now only playing domestic tourneys and if any teams do start bitching about this then it's gonna sound pretty hollow bearing in mind they never played Stateside at all this last year.
i do not recall calling anything feeble? but if i did in the context that you have described then i apologise that was not my intention!

how far do we go to accomodate teams? well i think all teams that want to stick their necks and wallets out and play with the big boys should not only be allowed but encouraged!

hold on a minute Robbo, the stateside argument itself is hollow, yes hats off to all you guys for doing it this past season, well done! but we are talking about the Millennium circuit here that teams like ours want passionately to compete in at the highest level, we have also declared ourselves targets this coming season, just like Nexus did this season to compete in the States, but we are looking like being told sorry that door is shut, please try later! this is where i think it is wrong.

with reference to your opening two sentences i agree, to compete and maintain profile we (and i mean we cos we are all a part of this directly or indirectly) have to take our proverbial fingers outa our asses and get on with it, but not at the detriment of the league, its teams, and our integrity. people cannot be stepped on for this to succeed, beacause without people you dont have any teams.

[edit] just found the feeble comment, still maintain that this will happen if you only have 16 teams in a 'world series'[edit[
 

Robbo

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Re: Re: Robbo/Nick/Steve

Originally posted by gaff
i do not recall calling anything feeble? but if i did in the context that you have described then i apologise that was not my intention!

how far do we go to accomodate teams? well i think all teams that want to stick their necks and wallets out and play with the big boys should not only be allowed but encouraged!

hold on a minute Robbo, the stateside argument itself is hollow, yes hats off to all you guys for doing it this past season, well done! but we are talking about the Millennium circuit here that teams like ours want passionately to compete in at the highest level, we have also declared ourselves targets this coming season, just like Nexus did this season to compete in the States, but we are looking like being told sorry that door is shut, please try later! this is where i think it is wrong.

with reference to your opening two sentences i agree, to compete and maintain profile we (and i mean we cos we are all a part of this directly or indirectly) have to take our proverbial fingers outa our asses and get on with it, but not at the detriment of the league, its teams, and our integrity. people cannot be stepped on for this to succeed, beacause without people you dont have any teams.

[edit] just found the feeble comment, still maintain that this will happen if you only have 16 teams in a 'world series'[edit[

Now I gotta sticky position here because in airing my views, and that's all they are remember as I do not tell anybody what to do, I am also coach of Nexus and what may on the surface look like an opinion can well be viewed by some people as self-interest.

Regardless of any Nexus connection, I hope that you would trust that anytihng that comes outa my gob would still be spewing forth even if there was no Nexus connection.

Now just because Sergei's blueprint is described as a World series doesn't necessarily mean it has to reflect all teams who play in the world, it just has to have representatives.

As for stepping on people?
I don't think for one second the developemnt of this league steps on you at all or any other team for that matter.
The teams who I would have selected for this league would be the teams who have earnt their stripes already and if you aren't one of them then it just means you weren't ready regardless of what you now declare.
And as for your explanation of making things feeble....you gotta explain WHY you feel this for it to be an explanation!
 

Magued

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Ideas...

Have had a discussion with some people including Pete.
And i do think now that a series structured with relegation and promotion would be the best thing to do.

Then we have some things to figure out.
How do we form the league regarding the US teams. Dynasty and Strange played most Millennium series this year and some other teams want to play next year.
And how many teams do we let in for the premier league?

Regarding picking the teams for the first year shouldnt be to hard.
The first year will be by invitation and some kind of garantee that they can attend event in the Millennium and Nppl S7.

Russian Legion, Nexus, Joy Divison, and TonTon is for sure for many reasons.
Then my pick would be Mayhem Tigers, Ugly Ducklings, a german team and either Hardcore or Ignition. This can be settled by who can actuelly afford to play whats required.

Then after the last event relegation for the last team and playoff for team nr 7 against runners up in division 1 could be 1 way to do it.
So all teams that feels that they are getting there **** together can do that and win division 1 next year and paly premier legue after that.

Magued

As it
 

gaff

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Re: Re: Re: Robbo/Nick/Steve

Originally posted by Robbo
As for stepping on people?
I don't think for one second the developemnt of this league steps on you at all or any other team for that matter.
The teams who I would have selected for this league would be the teams who have earnt their stripes already and if you aren't one of them then it just means you weren't ready regardless of what you now declare.
And as for your explanation of making things feeble....you gotta explain WHY you feel this for it to be an explanation!
Robbo

lets get one thing straight.....i have not disagreed with what you are saying throughout the entire thread, all i have done is express my concern for decisions of this magnitude being enforced with but 2 months to prepare.

as you said if you had to horrible job of selecting the teams that deserve the invite then we would probably not be in that list.....i do not have a problem with that, in the context that we are discussing it. But.....i do have a problem with the fact that if we had known that this situation was occuring 6months ago we could and others could have stepped up their appearances and hopefully have finished higher in the final standings.

from STORM's point of view we were aiming to commit to all Millenniums and 3 maybe 4 NPPL's next season, but it looks like our plans are being changed on our behalf.

my explanation of the 'feeble' comment is, ifyou get your select 16 Pro teams and they commit to the entire series, but in doing so you get teams like us for instance either losing the huge deal we had lined up before any changes were mentioned, or just dont want to spend as much money because we have not been allowed to play at the level we want to. then you could in theory (it may or may not happen) end up with a tournament of 16 teams only, and that would not help the industry one little bit.

i know that the example above is a bit extreme but it is written around my feelings for this matter. At the end of the day i want to play paintball at the highest standard available, and if i am not allowed to spend my money as a sponsor and a player, and have the choice of where i am playing and at what standard that is, then the game has just become that little less interesting.

for example i have sponsored an F1 team for 3 seasons (very small amounts compaired to the big sponsors, but huge in teams of Paintball sponsorship) this team is very low in the final standings, and occasionally finishes races! but they are allowed to compete against Ferrari and Maclaren because thay choose to pay their maoney and enter their team. i dont see why we have to limit the number of Pro teams in this 'premier league' we should be encouraged to enter.
 

Robbo

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Robbo/Nick/Steve

Originally posted by gaff
Robbo

lets get one thing straight.....i have not disagreed with what you are saying throughout the entire thread, all i have done is express my concern for decisions of this magnitude being enforced with but 2 months to prepare.

as you said if you had to horrible job of selecting the teams that deserve the invite then we would probably not be in that list.....i do not have a problem with that, in the context that we are discussing it. But.....i do have a problem with the fact that if we had known that this situation was occuring 6months ago we could and others could have stepped up their appearances and hopefully have finished higher in the final standings.

from STORM's point of view we were aiming to commit to all Millenniums and 3 maybe 4 NPPL's next season, but it looks like our plans are being changed on our behalf.

my explanation of the 'feeble' comment is, ifyou get your select 16 Pro teams and they commit to the entire series, but in doing so you get teams like us for instance either losing the huge deal we had lined up before any changes were mentioned, or just dont want to spend as much money because we have not been allowed to play at the level we want to. then you could in theory (it may or may not happen) end up with a tournament of 16 teams only, and that would not help the industry one little bit.

i know that the example above is a bit extreme but it is written around my feelings for this matter. At the end of the day i want to play paintball at the highest standard available, and if i am not allowed to spend my money as a sponsor and a player, and have the choice of where i am playing and at what standard that is, then the game has just become that little less interesting.

for example i have sponsored an F1 team for 3 seasons (very small amounts compaired to the big sponsors, but huge in teams of Paintball sponsorship) this team is very low in the final standings, and occasionally finishes races! but they are allowed to compete against Ferrari and Maclaren because thay choose to pay their maoney and enter their team. i dont see why we have to limit the number of Pro teams in this 'premier league' we should be encouraged to enter.

Ok Gaff, first things first, the inspiration for all this came some weeks back when Sergei asked a few people for a meeting where he was to propose a radical rethink in the way the Millennium and NPPL structured themselves and also for those two bodies to drastically rethink their emphasis.
The timing of this meeting was determined by many factors not least of which was the progress achieved by the NXL in securing their deal with Dick Clark and his production company.
So you see nobody knew of this 6 months ago so nobody could have possibly been told.
This is a recent development and a more recent initiative !
And why the hell would nebody need an initiative like this to provide sufficient initiative to better themselves ?
With no disrespect intended, if you could not find sufficient reason within the existing Millennium and NPPL circuits to improve then I'm afraid that's your problem you ain't done it by the time something new came along.
You guys have been around a long time, a lot longer than my team remember.

I'm afraid your justification of the use of 'feeble' is feeble, it's just too far fetched to use as a reason.
I think you have let your feelings on the subject cloud your judgment on that one mate.


The limiting of teams is only my opinion and is based upon my agreement with most of what Sergei proposed.
It basically comes down to this, if we are to market this sport to outside sponsors on the back of TV coverage then we need to have a coherent package on offer or they ain't gonna bother with some ad hoc arrangement of teams randomly turning up for tournaments.
The tourneys need to be set, the teams need to be locked in, the league needs to be formalised in terms of ownership and share allocations and so on.
The whole structure has to be professional before the sort of people we need to invest in the teams / leagues will even look at us.
The franchising of the teams won't happen, if at all, till year start 2005 which leaves us 2004 as a trial year.
My belief is that if we don't try to emulate what is gonna be on offer come 2005 as closely as possible then all we are gonna do is waste a year's paintball and put off any potential sponsors that might happen along.
And remember this year is already gonna be televised when Fox Sports cover the NPPL for 6 programmes.
The televising of the NPPL in such will inevitably generate outside interest in the sport. If some serious companies come knocking then the least we can do is organise ourselves into a serious league with some serious teams and not some free for all.

As I have said, we either do it right or we don't bother coz make no mistake about it, if we make a half hearted attempt where all we do is try and accommodate politics, disenchanted teams etc, then we are doomed to replicate the mistakes we have already made once before.