Pro players in lower divisions

[shamu]

Shamu:

I fully understand all the problems attached to policing this - which is why I hope this debate will go some way in creating a solution.

But, at base level, do you agree it would be best if low ranked teams could not hire top level players for events, to save themselves from relegation?

Nick

Pro players on a rookie (D3 team) would be unrealistic. Allowing pros on a D1 team is reasonable, particularly if that's the lowest "open" division they can join. You can limit it to 1 or 2 pro players per team too, so Nick doesn't put 5 RL players on the Ducks

At the D1 level, the teams are competitive enough that they either train seriously or they have the funds to hire ringers. Either way, they're there to win.

if you look at PSP and NPPL, both have similar rules on players. Teams can have 1 player from the rank above on their roster (except D3/rookie, which an only be D3 players). So a D1 team with a pro player is OK. This also makes it easier to deal with reclassification (e.g, a player gets cut from a pro team and can still play with a D1 team with having to reclassify)

I think the guest players should be regulated, but trying to keep them out entirely is more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Johan]

shamu go shoot yourself, you dont know what you are talking about!

 

[mr S]

Centurio Athenes 2007 :

Finals: Bullets vs Syndicate ( spl vs cpl )
Bullets won without Mr.U and Ollie.

I think there are no big differences in CPL and SPL
So I do not see reason to forbid PRO player to play in SPL.

Or is it different to play PRO in EU and US ?

Please excuse my English.
Peter.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Or is it different to play PRO in EU and US ?

I'm sorry to say this dude - but.... ARE YOU KIDDING?

Anyway - this is NOT about US vs Europe.... it is about Pro players getting hired by teams in lower divisions, to help them either secure promotion or insure against relegation

Nick

 

[Sherman]

XSV player not playing for XSV in CPL because of money tells everything. MS is the 'all expenses paid european holiday playground' for (US) pros. Really makes MS a second class tournament series.

 

[cocik]

I know some people will come on here and go "they teach us a lot" - or similar stuff - and to me, that is just BS, and a cheap escape for not wanting to admit you are buying results you could not obtain on your own.

What on earth do you learn from getting shot out within 30 seconds in every game, and then see a couple of world class Pros mop up the field for you - in a division far below their usual level?

You could have seen US pro's even in Div 2 & Div 3 last season and I do not think it mattered that much. Having one or two pro's on a team does not guarantee you anything expect for having to pay a nice sum of cash for tickets, hotel, etc. Even if you play against such teams, you still have a very good chance of winning (we did that even in Div 3 & Div 2 several times, so this shall be no real problem for the SPL players - the Centurio in Athens was a nice example)

On the other hand, I perfectly understand the motivation of hiring us pro's on such level. The guys run a few training sessions before the tourney and then give some good examples during a real match. Our sister team has done just the same thing and they have improved significantly thanks to these two guys (without even getting to a podium).

Or a different example you have mentioned - the Bullets. I am not sure if you are getting the point here. I remember them back in the old days when there was no Mr. U & Olie. They were just an average bunch of guys playing some decent paintball. But after the pro's joined their team, all their players have improved. And i mean IMPROVED. And even more - the other Bullets players started giving practice lessons and advice to a number of other teams elswhere. I know many teams who benefit from the fact that Arpi is able to pay for Olie & U and bring them over to Central Europe, the whole paintball thing went up in this region. And no one has any problems with having to play against Bullets with all the pro's during regional tournaments - for most of the guys it is a great experience and something to talk about for another month or two.

Anyway, let's finish this idealist east-european BS and get back to the real world. You know how much things cost in paintball. Do you really think that hiring a bunch of pro's in order to have slightly higher chance of getting to the podium is really profitable and sustainable? Do the math, count the money. At the end of the day you will still need a decent team of your own well-trained players to do the job in long term and the pro's can help speed the training up. That's the main profit of hiring them.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

I think you are completely wrong.

First of all, X-Ball is a very different animal than 7-man, and the impact of 2 world class players in a division with a quality on par with NPPL Div 1 (if that) is a very major change.... if you seriously believe cutting two starters from Miami Rage and putting in your 4th and 5th french player in SPL instead - is not a major change - you are delusional

- do you not think replacing 40 % of your line up with Dynasty players would make a difference?

Secondly, this is NOT a debate about Oliver and Pete - their situation is an anomoly in this respect.... this is a very principal discussion to me and one I believe has a major impact on the future of European paintball. - I have no problem with Pro players doing clinics and/or coaching at the event - but when these guys take the field for the teams, it is entirely a different situation. - If you were in Toulouse, you would have seen how often the outcome of a game was changed, because the hired guns saved the team.

Third, if there was no direct benefit in terms of result, for the teams to have these players play with them - why would they do it?... and why would anyone have a problem with me raising the issue?

Fourth, I need to stress I feel, that our result in Toulouse were in no way effected by hired guns on other teams... but I clearly see a problem emerging here, and it puzzles me a bit that so many people do not see the writing on the wall, and the need for some boundries, before hiring top players gets to a ridiculous level.

I don't know what you mean by "idealist east european BS" - feel free to elaborate.

Oh - and feel free to identify yourself

Nick

 

[cocik]

Don't worry about the BS thing, that was rather a self-consious remark to my previous paragraph

I'm just trying to point out that getting pro players over to Europe is good for paintball overall (be it a coach or a hired gunshot). People need to improve and playing a real game with (or against) a real pro is an extremely good way to improve. And from what I have seen and experienced, it is not a suicide.

In fact, I was in Toulouse (you could have seen me at the podium having a thank-you speech). I saw a couple games where hired guns saved the day and I saw a couple games where they did not (Budapest Bullets are a perfect example). But I also saw many paintballers eager to see those pro's in action, watching and carefully studying their moves.

If we are going to move European paintball forward, we definitely need those guys (just as Europe needed Canadians in the early times of ice-hockey). An if one reasonable way is to get them in is to hire them for tourneys, then why not. At the end, we all will benefit from that in long-term.

PS> towards identifying myself, I do not think it really matters let's say that I really suck in paintball (compared to your skill level), but back at home about a million people watch me on TV every week

 

[mikey601]

Don't worry about the BS thing, that was rather a self-consious remark to my previous paragraph

I'm just trying to point out that getting pro players over to Europe is good for paintball overall (be it a coach or a hired gunshot). People need to improve and playing a real game with (or against) a real pro is an extremely good way to improve. And from what I have seen and experienced, it is not a suicide.

In fact, I was in Toulouse (you could have seen me at the podium having a thank-you speech). I saw a couple games where hired guns saved the day and I saw a couple games where they did not (Budapest Bullets are a perfect example). But I also saw many paintballers eager to see those pro's in action, watching and carefully studying their moves.

If we are going to move European paintball forward, we definitely need those guys (just as Europe needed Canadians in the early times of ice-hockey). An if one reasonable way is to get them in is to hire them for tourneys, then why not. At the end, we all will benefit from that in long-term.

PS> towards identifying myself, I do not think it really matters let's say that I really suck in paintball (compared to your skill level), but back at home about a million people watch me on TV every week

Noel Edmunds?

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

If we are going to move European paintball forward, we definitely need those guys (just as Europe needed Canadians in the early times of ice-hockey). An if one reasonable way is to get them in is to hire them for tourneys, then why not. At the end, we all will benefit from that in long-term.

I think you are missing my point - still.

If those top players were a permanent part of the team, practiced with them, etc. - it would be great.

But, when they just show up for events and play, it benefits the other players in the team very little, except for being able to win more games.

I STILL fail to see, in a sport like paintball, how it benefits the skill level of a player, that someone else on his team, in a tournament game, is better than him?

Other teams may benefit - over time - by playing against better teams... ofcourse, but that is what promotion to CPL is for....

Anyway - let's agree to disagree - you are clearly closely affiliated with one of the teams that avail themselves of the option, so I don't think we can agree

Nick