Okay, on this whole reunification thing...

[SteveD]

Duffi,

why is he incentivising a reunification? So that the format DOESN'T disappear.

Hey guys - if I pay for your next round of drinks, will you hang out for another hour so I can look like I have friends...?

See, this is how distorting the truth will always bite your butt in the end: if Richmond had been crowing to all and sundry about the new format he FOUND, invented by some unnamed yutz from New Jersey, today he could be blaming the whole failure thing on me; but instead, he had to take the credit for a BADLY distorted version, that does not work in front of the camera and does not work as a real sport, so now he's the one stuck with the failure.

If you could get an honest opinion of the Pink Floyd format from the ProCaps reps who were at PaintFest, they'd have to tell you that it was better than x-ball, and they would tell you that we SOLVED all of the camera, interest, sport, control, refs, rules, presentation, et al issues. They didn't take it as is because they heard ME telling everyone that it was OBVIOUS that once teams learned the format, paint usage would drop, making tournaments more affordable; being paint manufacturers, its easy to understand why they went the direction they went - but they missed the whole point:

a LESS EXPENSIVE format is easier for corporate sponsors to step up and underwrite, and all we were talking about was a showcase property for the industry - 16-32 teams, well funded, well supported, playing an obviously exciting format WOULD MORE THAN COMPENSATE IN ADDITIONAL INDUSTRY PARTICIPATION.

But no - they had to go and try to encourage everyone to shoot ten times as much paint NOW, instead of building something for the future. And what did that get us? Broadcasters who are now convinced that paintball is, at best, a cash cow for infomercials, many, many influential media people with a bad taste in their mouth -

AND WE'RE GOING TO TRY AND DO IT ALL THE SAME WAY AGAIN!?!

Give me a freakin break.

Stuffi that! (lol)

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

To put in thier pockets of course. What is left over after a budget is known as profit. Thats what the teams want after all.

I actually think very few teams are run that way outside the NXL - most of the rest just want to play - the more money they get, the more they play... which was my point.... let's not forget that unification is supposed to be for ALL the teams - not just for the top 20

If one standard paintball format is being ofered up to the public, then everyone is heading in the same direction. One of the things that everyone agrees is holding Paintball back (from what is another matter of course) is having 3 groups pulling in different directions. Direction is essential in any business/sport/industry/whatever. Thats one of the things that is lacking, and a unified, instantly identifiable and understandable game has so far escaped us.

I agree completely!

But - I would like to see what format is being offered up before saying it's best for the sport - let's not put the cart before the horse here.

My point was, that Europe can afford to drag it's heels a little on the unification issue, because it is predominantly an issue between the NPPL and PSP at this point in time... and if we do not like the direction the collective of those two leagues are taking, we can choose to go our own way.

Obviously, that would be a hard decision to make, given the "one format is best for the sport" thing.... but if someone bought the NPPL and PSP and said "right, you are all playing 30 man woodland ball now" - I would also oppose unification - and not give a damn about whether it was best for the sport.

of course it is better for the industry. I think it is also better for the teams, and there is no doubt in my mind that it is better for the game.

Again I agree with the principle - but I want to see if the format is ALSO good for the sport, before committing.

I see no valid argument if people legitimately want progress. I think most people do want this. Agenda's have to be put down for this to happen..

Well - I think you would find it hard to find anyone on the face of the planet saying they are against "progress".

- But once you qualify it with your own definition of the word "progress" - people start to have different oppinions

Nick

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Robbo
Come on Baca, if you are gonna jump in after you been hovering in the wings on this one, you gotta put up a better show than the list of points you just mentioned....


I've seen more meat on a hairclip !!!!

There wasn't anything to chew on, Pete, though I thought I could hear a refrain of "We are the World" while I was reading Missy's post.

Besides, I'm trying to adher to the wise counsel of a Paintball legend who is inclined to think all this forum chatter is just hot air. So Ive decided to do my part to combat global warming and keep my excesses to a minimum.

 

[Chicago]

Sorry Steve, but XBall is better than the USPL format, and the only reason I can find that you'd think otherwise is that you created the USPL format. They're not really even that similar, aside from having penalty boxes.

I am concerned about the TERMS of the unification. I think NPPL is very good at convincing people to behappy giving them money, but I think PSP does a better job of running paintball as an actual sport. At least with PSP, if you say "Man, PSP, your reffing sucks!" they'll say, "Yeah, we're trying to fix that", and every now and again you'll see some real evidence of this - like the new reffing application system they just started. If you say to NPPL "Man, NPPL, your reffing realy sucks!" they'll say "We have a PRO ref organization, consisting of all-certified referees, as evidenced by their pretty jersies!" PSP has what is generally recognized as the best classification/ID system in paintball, NPPL has a membership program where you give them $35 and ... well, I'm not sure what you happens after that.

Now, obviously, NPPL has bands, and fruit, and VIP stands, and "more public" locations, and better marketing, and all that, but if NPPL wants to run concerts, then NPPL should get into the concert business. I want paintball to be paintball, and I don't want what needs to be done to advance paintball as a SPORT to get lost by people whose chief motivation seems to be making a buck putting on a big show where some paintball might get played.

Regardless, if there is unification, who is going to run it? Obviously we can't have a grou of promoters run it - we've already proven that the many chiefs thing does not work at all. So - you've got Bart, and you've got Lane.

Which one is it going to be? I just can't see one half of the industry letting Bart run it, and I can't see the other half letting Lane run it. Even if these guys do want to unify, I suspect the unification will fail on the details. Neither side can afford to not continue planning for next season, and they're quickly going to find that they've already started having events before they've figured out how ot only have one league.

 

[Dannefaerd]

So in reading your post Chicago ... would the unification make sense if we used the NiPPLe promotion/marketing model, and combined with the PSP "detail" planning (ala ref's, player rego, etc)

Would be a simple enough process to assign areas of responsibilities (and corresponding KPI's) to both Bart and Lane .. and have the best of both worlds.

Or am I dreaming?

 

[Chicago]

I think the problem with that model is, all the income would be on Lane's side, so Bart might have a tough time paying the bills. And at the end of the day, you can't have two people equally in charge, one guy has to be above the other.

Plus, I think in order for Lane to do the sport part well, given that the industry wants to REDUCE financial commitment, there'd have to be a reduction in some of the things Bart is doing. I'd trade a lot of what Bart is doing for more money spent on reffing.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
There wasn't anything to chew on, Pete, though I thought I could hear a refrain of "We are the World" while I was reading Missy's post.

Besides, I'm trying to adher to the wise counsel of a Paintball legend who is inclined to think all this forum chatter is just hot air. So Ive decided to do my part to combat global warming and keep my excesses to a minimum.

My quote of 'hot air' when concerning what people write on these boards has little to do with the quality of what is written, as you are well aware, some of the discussions and participants we have on P8ntballer.com are by far the most informed, intelligent and interesting people I have ever seen on the Paintball net, yourself included !
My point (tho not well made) was directed toward the lack of interest and any subsequent uptake from the industry after maybe reading such threads.
They (the industry) seem to be a law unto themselves paying little heed to what is written in places like this no matter how well intentioned or intelligent.

As for any global intentions PP may have, I'm not one for monopolies, I'm also not one for a fragmented industry (or leagues) and if this sport is in dire need of unification (which I believe it is under present circumstances) then I couldn't think of a better bunch of guys to run any unified league.
They have earned their stripes in showing just how to promote and manage paintball events, they have shown they are the best in the world in my opinion and as such, 'to the victor goeth the spoils' as far as I am concerned.
The proposals getting ready to be placed on the table are I'm sure inclusive of shared responsibility and management by all parties (NPPL, PSP and Millennium) and if during that process of integration PP assert themselves, then you wouldn't get no moans from me.
These guys have done more for our sport than most, I respect what they have done, what they are trying to do and how much they have put in to get where they are now.
The only bias I have in saying all this is one of liking what they have done for our sport in unbelievably difficult conditions and let’s face it Paul, if we are looking round for alternate promoters in the US who could do the same standard of job as they, we start to scratch a bit.
Missy Q is a proud man and rightfully defensive of any attacks or criticisms directed at PP, he is also a company man ‘yes’ but not an unreasonable or unintelligent one, far from it in fact.
I wouldn’t let your verbal volleyball sessions get in the way of assessing the true worth of what PP have achieved for our sport.
All of what I have just said seems partial, it seems as tho I might have vested interests in promoting PP, I haven’t mate, none whatsoever, they give me nothing, I just honestly think they do a great job, that’s all.

 

[TJ Lambini]

Originally posted by Chicago
I think the problem with that model is, all the income would be on Lane's side, so Bart might have a tough time paying the bills. And at the end of the day, you can't have two people equally in charge, one guy has to be above the other.

THAT''S your problem? Dude, you worry too much...that's an easy one. Chuck or whoever is tha figurehead/president of tha NPPL, Bart is in charge or promotion/sponsorship/media, Lane deals with tha teams and reffing crews...one is head of promotions or Vice President of Marketing or Whatever, tha other is Field Operations Officer...shoulder to shoulder, totally in charge of different domains.

 

[TJ Lambini]

Originally posted by Robbo


Missy Q is a proud man

Missy is a man?

All those romantic nights on AIM, just me, Missy and a box of Kleenex, were a sham?

I feel unclean...

 

[BlitZZkrieg Mueller]

easy, ...

I dont know if this already has been mentioned, but as far as I can see the whole thing, there is a need for unification as far as the sponsors are concerned. I dont think the big companies, being part of boths series in the US are going to spend big budgets in both series next year.

A possibility might be to have someone reprensenting the industrie, gathering all the cash for next year put it in a small briefcase (maybe a big one) bring someone of PP and someone of PSP together put this money in between them, and wait for what miht happen, ...

or maybe the sponsors go where they feal most and best promoted, this might be where the pure promotion is, ...