Okay, on this whole reunification thing...

[Red Ring Inflictor]

The question of which format is obviously not the highest priority for the decision makers regarding a shift in constellations but for the players, the referees, the spectators and the media X Ball is vastly superior to single-goal formats. The only thing that even keeps single-goal 7-man alive in the major leagues is the fact that NPPL, and to a somewhat lesser extent Millennium, do such a fantastic job of wrapping it up and presenting it marvelously.

X Ball elegantly solves all of the hassles associated with single-goal formats except for the gun problems.

How X Ball is superior, let me count the ways:

¤ all the pre-game procedures so hated by refs and players alike, that have a tendency to upset schedules (ID checks, clothing checks, goggle checks, padding checks, gun checks, coin-toss, armbands [which suck!], reminders of start procedures, etc.) are repeated 60 - 75 daily with single-goal compared with 5 - 8 times daily with X Ball.

¤ refs have to chase down captains after each and every game to get the scoresheets signed between every game after armbands are collected and counted (did I say I hated armbands?) compared with a scoresheet that is filled in during the game and is complete at the end of the 45 - 60 minute match.

¤ false starts caused by disappearing voices; replaced by horns and buzzers

¤ spectator interference, which distracts players and officials alike and often causes ill-will and controversy, is replaced by a dynamic interaction that many regard as fun

¤ spectators and media people have to find a schedule (not always available) and chase interesting games around a site for a game that lasts maybe 45 seconds compared with sitting put for 45 minutes or an hour, relaxing and enjoying.

¤ It often pays to cheat with current 7-man rules, especially when you need the points and you're down on bodies. You play on like a mofo, take the penalty (if you're unlucky) and still win. With X Ball's 90-second rule ANY penalty in the last 90 seconds automatically awards a point to the opponent team. Sorted!

¤ players hanging around on-field after elimination, hands-on-head, etc aren't a problem in X Ball because players want to get off the field quickly to get ready for the next round

¤ scheduling and showing up for games on a timely basis is much easier and much more relaxed for X Ball. No huffing and puffing from staging area to air to tech tent to playing field and back again four times a day.

¤ everything needed is right there, served on a silver platter, for X Ball: chrono station, tables, air fills, the field, the scoreboard.

¤ collusion, game-rigging, game-fixing or whatever you want to call it is elegantly eliminated with the double-elimination format

And this is just a partial list. As can be seen here, the refs are beat to death by single-goal formats and are forced to waste so much time and energy on the necessary but non-game-playing issues repeatedly. In X Ball they are freed up to just focus on better officiating.

Another point is that a recent survey here showed X Ball to be the most desired way to play despite a league to present it.

Like Mr Robinson said, it doesn't have to be 5-man, not even X Ball per se. The point here is that the single-goal format kept alive by Mill and NPPL is a dinosaur.

 

[TJ Lambini]

Originally posted by Furby
Nice conversation going on here, but I still haven't seen anything that convinces me that reunification is going to happen.

Tha will is there. Talks are taking place. What more convincing do you need Furbs? Spy pics of Chuck giving Jerry a rubdown? Owen and Adam G in a hot tub?

(I have those - PM me for a price and worldwide licensing exclusivity)

 

[Robbo]

Hmmm - so many erudite submissions, this must have Baca jerking off in the library.

A lot of guys on here (with no disrespect intended) will not know the history of Steve D(avison) in that he invented or rather created the XBall type format.
I use XBall, not out of disrespect to Steve but because it tags what I am talking about for most people.

Steve was putting this 'type' format around a few years before XBall came on the scene and at one time I think Steve offered the format to me for marketing to Europe but I'm afraid I lacked the vision he had and was probably more involved in the more mundane aspects of paintball rather than trying to revolutionize it which this format certainly did.

I didn’t run with it and the next thing I knew was when Richmond came up with its close relative for Pittsburgh.
As for the legitimacy of Steve’s claim in that game formats are patentable, I honestly don’t know but when Sergey tells me his lawyers have researched the area and they tell him it’s not patentable, I would tend to lend some weight to his words.

But as Steve suggests, if it is, then it is not the legitimacy of anybody’s claim that will determine what’s right and who owns it but the length of one’s pocket in either defending or attacking a patent right.
It seems in American law, the people with the most money tend to win in situations like this, or at least can drag it out to their advantage.
As far as I know, Steve was the first guy to come up with a format of this ilk, he’s obviously a visionary of our sport but unfortunately for him, his pockets weren’t as long as the Mississippi, far from it.
History is littered with such unfortunates.
Justice, it seems, in America is inextricably linked to one’s pay packet and as such, Steve was dealt some cruel blows.
The wheel turns again…….
The NPPL have long resisted the change to an XBall type format and I have had many conversations with Owen on this subject, and this integration, if it happens (and I think it will) provides an opportunity for so many good things to happen in paintball not least of which is a world wide format and league to come out the other side.
Steve Davison’s genesis format, (or XBall type format) should be the type of paintball that is played, I have no doubt about that whatsoever, I know Owen (and some of the other guys on PP) has some reservations but in my opinion, they need to adopt this new format and the only question is whether it be 5 or 7 man and to be honest, I don’t give a **** and I don’t even think I know the best answer though Sergey I know, would favor the 5 man version and I’d probably go with him on that one, if only because I can’t make my own mind up.

 

[Gyroscope]

Wouldn't 7 man Xball entail enormous rosters and expenses? I can't see the advantage. It seems like all the downsides of Xball would be amplified.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Gyroscope
Wouldn't 7 man Xball entail enormous rosters and expenses? I can't see the advantage. It seems like all the downsides of Xball would be amplified.

Gyro, 7 man XBall 'lite' would mean a squad of say 9 players with a 5 min turn around so that the same players could pretty much all come out again.
There's a couple of ways in which you can frame proceedings such as first to five points or the team who has the most points after 25 mins of play, all this can be tinkered with and so faciliatate lower paint usage, uphold the attractiveness of the game and make it manageable in terms of processing teams but once again these are the details, pimples on the ass of a much bigger and more important resolution, that of unifying the sport for the 3 major leagues, NPPL, PSP and the Millennium.

As soon as all concerned get their heads straight regarding this proritisation the better because it would be a tragedy if this all stumbled over some half ass detail such as format.

 

[SteveD]

15 man....12 man....10 man....7 man....5 man....3 man....and counting.

When NPPL was first created, one of the planks on the table was the preservation of a TEAM sized format. Those of us sitting at the table for that first meeting were ALL refugees from 15 man ball, lamented its passing, wanted a return to the larger format but understood that sustaining it - in light of the intro of the smaller ten man format - would be virtually impossible.

We dedicated the NPPL to the preservation and support of the ten man format - it was an absolute, no compromise demand that the teams made.

We recognized that the smaller the team size, the more diluted the skill set for being a decent team would become. (Paintball, in its quest for larger markets, has 'dumbed down' the game. Maintaining a larger team size was one of the hurdles required for a place at the table...)

Milt Call of Brimstone was an early supporter/participant of my format. He approached me about doing a 3 man version for his first Ultimate Madness event. It would probably be the format used in his UAPL if I hadn't said no at the time. But it was a qualified no. All I wanted was a year or two to get the larger team format established (7 man), and then he could roll with the smaller size.

I wanted the larger team size because it says TEAM, and I firmly believe that paintball is at its best as a TEAM sport.

I believe that there is a critical number for team size for a given sport; for paintball, I think that number is back up around 15 (but that's me - I'd go back to pump in the woods in a heartbeat); to be more realistic about it, the critical number is one that lets a team sustain some losses while still maintaining the ability to conduct offensive operations. I don't think 5 is a large enough number to provide that opportunity - but I could be wrong.

The format is amenable to just about any team size. The key elements are: no scoring opportunities for playing defensively, a balance between movement and firepower, STOPPING THE GAME for penalties (one of the key elements left out by X-Ball), a field design that simultaneously shows the entire field to the spectator and provides areas of concealment for the players (supporting the movement criteria) and a few other things that I'll reveal to people with money...

Maybe 6 man is the answer...?

As for team size. What I offered with the Genesis Format (nice name Pete, I'm stealing it) was the opportunity for a larger team to share in the expense, without substantially increasing the expense. (Some observers watching the Genesis format being played by neophyte teams just learning the format incorrectly assumed that it was a paintwaster, which is undoubtedly one of the many reasons that it was 'borrowed'). We capped the 7 player team at 21 on the roster (three 'lines'). You could do it with 14, 10 to 12 for a 5 man version.

But regardless, the subject at hand is the merger.

Personally, I don't think that NPPL has much to gain - except the undiluted support of various sponsors and the undivided attention of some teams. Those reasons are strong enough to warrant contemplating the possibility. I'd make some demands though:

the merger of all player records into a database maintained by an outside authority (as I've said elsewhere on p8ntballer, there are companies that maintain memberships lists for a living)

the establishment of a hands-off policy on the part of industry parties

the active solicitation of regional leagues as feeders with incentives to bring them into the fold

a program for adding other levels (little league, for-fun leagues) in the future

the establishment of a committee to actively analyze. investigate and invent, where necessary, the format (Exodus?) that meets the needs of the players, the sport, and the target market.

Fear is almost always a motivator; perhaps the current state of the industry will make everyone wake up to the fact that industry 'business as usual' has not worked for the past 15 years and that its time to try setting some long term goals instead of focusing on short-term profit. (I know, I know, but I can still hope)

 

[Gyroscope]

Interesting take... sort of a hybrid. I didn't understand the shorthand. EDIT: addressed to Robbo- SteveD beat me to the punch (but I shot him first)

I know things were getting off track and the format issue is a wrinkle only. I was thinking as I wrote that the only place I had seen much talk about reunification was here, and just in case this was a "tail wags the dog" sort of project, I wanted to help make more smoke.

By the way, this is the only place I am seeing much reunification talk. Why is everyone so sure that it is going to happen? I imagine that friendships would be strained if any cats were released from bags, but are NPS and Dye gonna cut funding for the PSP? I mean, Bob Long is a respected coach and everything, but you could have a tournament series without the guy, after all.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

I think people are looking at this whole "format" issue from the entirely wrong perspective.

Much too much "feeling" is invested in the issue.

I don't for a second believe NPPL and PP truly thinks 7-man/7-minute games is the best possible format for TV - I just think that they (rather cleverly) used the fact that many doubted the X-ball format when it came out, to create a league based on "not X-ball" - and made a huge success with it.

Now - the problem is that they are completely unable to depart from the 7-man format they have so aggressively promoted as the best, as they think it would make them look stupid.

Similarly I don't for a second believe the PSP thinks the current X-Ball format is perfect. - Major drawbacks are the cost for the teams and that the games become immensely boring once a team is up 4 points - which happens all too often.

But - once again - they have so much pride invested in the format, that they just CANNOT consider an alternative.

The sad truth is that most of the people involved with deciding on a unified format, have too much bagage, and have a hard time getting rid of that bagage.

As I see it, there are some universal truths to putting paintball on TV, that people should realise:

- 7 minutes is too short a time
- 7 players on a team are too many to keep track of
- 2x20 (or 25) minutes is way to long, when games quickly becomes stereotype (read: "boring")
- A "league" should consist of no more than 16-20 teams, as spectators need to be able to familiarise themselves with teams
- A game does not have to be set at a certain time limit

Add to that (which is not media related but important), that a format should be economically viable for teams without sponsorship.

I think it would be a big mistake to make 7-man X-ball light the format for the future.

On paper it looks like a nice compromise... the NPPL gets 7-man and PSP X-ball - and hey presto - we have a merger.

BUT... the fact of the matter is, that we would be combining the worst of the two worlds.

7-man is NOT the best format to televise, as there are too many players on field and it is too costly to produce for that reason. - Yes... many other sports have MORE players on field - but they are not hidden behind big inflatable objects, and do not neccesitate numerous cameras to cover every angle.

X-ball with 7 players will be just as costly for teams as real X-Ball... the money you save on paint because of the fewer games played, you loose because you have to bring more players to an event than for a "normal" 7-man event.

I believe the only way forward is 5-man X-ball light.... which is to say 5-man games, 3 minute turnovers - first team to 5 wins win the match (or whoever leads when 20 minutes have passed).

It will take a lot of pride to be swallowed by the NPPL and PP - but my hope is they are able to do it, for the sake of the sport.

Nick

 

[Furby]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Tha will is there. Talks are taking place. What more convincing do you need Furbs? Spy pics of Chuck giving Jerry a rubdown? Owen and Adam G in a hot tub?

(I have those - PM me for a price and worldwide licensing exclusivity)

That's just wrong on many levels, Lambini.

Aside from you and Chris IaQuinta, I haven't seen too many people sounding the trumpets about this thing happening...not that I'm doubting you or IQ, but aside from that I haven't seen too much that's convincing me. Once again, I don't expect Jerry or Chuck to give me a call and tell me what, if anything, is going on.

 

[SteveD]

Nick,

(oh how we have loved to disagree over the years...)

much of what makes a sport successful for television is counter-intuitive.

I'd argue that the team size does not matter as far as TV is concerned because the camera is going to focus in on the important action.

The problem is giving the camera an interesting shot that makes sense in the overall flow of a game; our major difficulty (other than blocking wide field shots with a giant X in the middle of the field) is the ability to show the tactical situation on the field. Why is it so important for that player to be in that bunker? Who knows Who cares.

Here is what television producers have told me: paintball has no money shots - no bone crunching, no aerials. We can't show the ball (well, we can, with existing tech, but no one has stepped up to show it) and, I'm sorry, but paintball has suffered more in the editing room than anywhere else. Forget trying to create some kind of new dynamic in video presentation - make it look like futbol or football or hockey or basketball.

Later, when the audience is there, it can be modified.

Stick a telestrator in there for the analysts. Stick a birds-eye animated view of the field in there. Have some video of 'typical' moves in the can so that what just happened on the field can be run as a side piece with commentary (see how he slides into the snake and then works up to that first knuckle? You've gotta start your slide earlier if you're gonna make it...)

Take video breaks during game stoppages to pass on game lore (we recently visited the Russian Legion's training camp for a look at what some of the top teams put their players through and let me tell you, it was some experience - roll that footage)

People want FAMILIAR. They DO NOT want to think. Its much easier to pull into mcdonalds drive through than it is to sit down at a table and read through a menu and then actually have to make a decision. Give them familiar with paintball on TV and the format, team size and league won't matter.

Hire effin John Madden for pete's sake.

On the format; let's not forget to build in that migration path. Local farm league player to local top league player to regional farm league player to regional top league player to national farm league to national pro. That's key for the marketing as well as sustaining the league. (Make everyone play pump in the woods for a year before they're even allowed on the speedball field...)

I write too much...