Okay, on this whole reunification thing...

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Jester1
Red:

I don't believe Xball and 7man to be similiar beyond guns and paint. The games have different scoring systems, penalty systems, rules, field layouts, etc. The player mentality is teamwork versus non-teamwork (loosely put), total aggession versus offense/defense, etc. I'm sure the list could easily grow quite large if we were to list everything.

Xball is, at the moment, the most convenient format to consider. It doesn't mean that it is THE format to consider. Let's not be small-minded and take the easy way out. The decisions made now will impact us at a most crucial time in our growth period. If we fail now we may never make it back to this point. Everyone needs to keep an open mind.....heck, maybe we sould even consider SteveD's idea!

You can consider whatever format you like but I'm afraid it ain't you (or anybody else in this forum) who is making the decision on this one and therefore makes that exercise futile (no disrespect intended).

I think the real debate should be entered when the decision is made and you can all talk till the cows come home about the possible and predicted effects of their decision, in fact, all of this speculation and conjecture is meaningless.
I'm not being facetious here; it just seems ludicrous to me that such an in-depth debate seems to be going on about things that haven’t even been decided yet.

In fact, the irony is, it may not even happen even though the signs do look good but I have been in this game long enough to know it ain't done till it's done.

XBall is a great format, that's for sure, I am also pretty sure that if any agreement is forthcoming then XBall (in one form or another) will be factored in whereby it will be a universally applied format (to all divisions with little maybe no variance).
This provides an industry standard format for others to follow (Millennium Series) if they so choose (which they should, no questions).

The dust has to settle for a while before negotiations will start up again and no doubt they will tell us when any decisions are made but until then, we all play the waiting game and hope upon hope this momentum doesn't fade.
Dave YB and Ged, for the most part, hold the fate of high end tournament paintball in their hands and as I told Baca recently, if I had to pick two people who represented both sides of that political and tournament divide to sort out any integration plans, then I couldn't think of two better people to do it....

 

[Missy Q]

Where there is a will there is a way. Things are happening to faciliate a merge and I feel the leagues are closer to agreeing a merge (in principle) than before. There will be casualties involved though, and eggs will no doubt have to be broken. The devil is always in the detail.

And just for the record - X-ball is definitely more expensive. Any arguments to the contrary are futile. Its basic mathematics. It doesn't matter what way you argue it. There is no 'depends on...' statement to be made. It's more expensive for a team entity to play, end of.

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Originally posted by Robbo
You can consider whatever format you like but I'm afraid it ain't you (or anybody else in this forum) who is making the decision on this one and therefore makes that exercise futile (no disrespect intended).... it just seems ludicrous to me that such an in-depth debate seems to be going on about things that haven’t even been decided yet....

You are absolutely right about this. I even qualified it this way a couple of times during the discussions. I just think that some of us have this as a hobby to discuss such things even though nothing will come of it. And sometimes it can be fun.

Originally posted by Robbo
...if I had to pick two people who represented both sides of that political and tournament divide to sort out any integration plans, then I couldn't think of two better people to do it....

You definitely have that right too. Two real visionaries who have played their cards right so that they also have resources.

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Originally posted by Missy Q
...X-ball is definitely more expensive. Any arguments to the contrary are futile. Its basic mathematics. It doesn't matter what way you argue it. There is no 'depends on...' statement to be made. It's more expensive for a team entity to play, end of.

I will agree with you only if qualified with the simple fact that the longer any team plays the more expensive it will be. That's all I'm saying, that X Ball is only more expensive because there's more play time--period, full stop. Make the necessary change to more back-to-back play and it will simply cost more. And the cost per minute of play time for the old-fashioned formats is way off the chart comparitively because all those associated expenses go to so little actual playing time.

 

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Missy Q
Where there is a will there is a way. Things are happening to faciliate a merge and I feel the leagues are closer to agreeing a merge (in principle) than before. There will be casualties involved though, and eggs will no doubt have to be broken. The devil is always in the detail.

And just for the record - X-ball is definitely more expensive. Any arguments to the contrary are futile. Its basic mathematics. It doesn't matter what way you argue it. There is no 'depends on...' statement to be made. It's more expensive for a team entity to play, end of.

By your logic, flying commercial is more expensive than flying on a corporate jet. But I'd be willing to bet you usually fly commercial.

Why? Because you're paying your own way, and for YOU, it's cheaper to fly on a 747.

Now, if you're a company, and you need to charter a jet to fly 15 employees, then the corporate jet is cheaper.

So saying "Xball is more expensive" doesn't work. XBall is more expensive when the team is financed by one entity. XBall is cheaper when financed by the individual player. And if you are a player who plays because you like to, XBall is by far the better way to compete.


As for XBall being more expensive to practice, xball is only more expensive to practice because you PRACTICE MORE. If you want to spend the same amount of money practicing XBall as you do practicing 7-man, just practice the same amount of time as 7-man teams.

XBall practice is MORE EFFICIENT - you can gete twice as much practicing done in the same amount of time. Whether you choose to use that extra time to practice twice as much (and thus spend twice as much practicing) or you choose to take your afternoons off, or practice one day a weekend instead of two, is up to you.

Although, it occurs to me that if moving from 7-man to XBall causes your paint budget for practice to go up considereably, it's probably because you were never "practicing" in the first place - you were SCRIMMAGING. Commonly confused by paintball teams as practice, but it isn't.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

There's nothing wrong with 'elitist' pro rules; college baskeball is a little different from NBA. Baseball, big changes from T-Ball to little league to Minors. Heck, even the two different conferences have differing rules.

Steve:

But the game is still about the same thing, with the same number of players on the same playing field, with the same game time (well apart from little league... but obviously kids can't play full game time at the age of 8 - or whatever ).

You can find all the examples you like from major sports - but please remember their circumstances are not the same... they have no need of educating the public or growing significantly.... which paintball does - and that is one of the main reasons I call for the same format all the way down.

Red ring:

I kinda tink it odd you are telling people to keep an open mind, and then drone on and on about how X-Ball is the only way to go.... I kinda get the feeling you feel your own fate is intertwined with that format, and as such have a personal interest in seeing it succeed?

Pete:

We are all aware none (or at least few) of us are at the table when decisions are being made... but fortunately decision makers read this forum, and this is the only way you get to have an effect - by potting points accross that they may not have thought about before reading them here - or having them referred to them by someone who wrote.

That has always been the idea between a forum like this - otherwise it would be a complete waste og time.

Chicago:

I just did the math, based on our experiences last year and this year... and I have to say you are right.

Per player, the consumption was not that different at events (calculating bringing 10 players to X-ball and 7 to 7-man)..... so I retract my earlier statement about X-Ball being more expensive, which was made before doing the math.

As such, you are correct that for a team paying its own way entirely, none of the formats make a difference in terms of expenditure..... it only makes a difference when a team is sponsored, and has a budget on paint, guns or whatever.

At any rate - I think that both X-Ball and 7-man are the wrong formats for the future, for the reasons stated several times the past weeks.

Nick

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
I kinda tink it odd you are telling people to keep an open mind, and then drone on and on about how X-Ball is the only way to go.... I kinda get the feeling you feel your own fate is intertwined with that format, and as such have a personal interest in seeing it succeed?

I am sincere in agreeing that we should all keep an open mind. Keeping an open mind isn't a contradiction to having beliefs, opinions and convictions. Hypothetically a better format might yet be introduced but so far it hasn't been (although I haven't seen Steve Davidson's format yet).

As far as my fate is concerned I have no idea what my personal involvement might be if any. Maybe coaching a team, maybe playing, maybe working somewhere in the business, I can't forsee. I can only say (but can't prove to you that it's unbiased) what I believe to be true based on my observations and my experience and that leads me to my belief in the X Ball format being far superior to any format I've seen so far. For players, teams, sponsors, promoters (and I'm prepared to explain why and how), leagues, officials, fans, PB media and outside media. Whatever capacity I may or may not have in the future doesn't take away what I objectively see to be true.

But as Robbo done reminded us, our opinions we volley around here ain't gonna change things one iota. Que sera sera.

 

[Missy Q]

Chicago - of course its more expensive. The more people you have the less the individual bill may be for an event, that I will concede, but the more people you have also means the more costs are incurred. The game is designed to have people shooting as fast as they can for as long as they can, and once the game slows someone throws in the towel and it all starts again at the fastest pace possible. Any field operator will tell you that if ytou give your clients mulitple lives, they will shoot more paint. Its one of the basics.
I have spoken to Xball captains and every single one of them without exception has said it is 'more', and in some cases, 'too' expensive.
You play more games, shoot more paint, and do this with more players. How can anyone successfully argue that it is not more expensive? I don't have a problem with the format, and never have, but lets just be honest and admit that its more expensive, shall we?

And the commercial/private jet thing - you may have to spell that out for me. I am still not getting it. My logic is far simpler than your example of what you think my logic is...

 

[Chicago]

You are confusing the costs of the relative FORMATS with the costs of the relative PLAY TIME.

XBall is *NOT* more expensive - *PLAYING MORE PAIBNTALL* is more expensive. It just so happens that with the CURRENT tournament structures, 7-man only plays 7-16 games per tournament, while xball teams play 20-100 (or more) games per tournament.

The cost has *NOTHING* to do with the FORMATS. The cost is entirely based on TOURNAMENT STRUCTURE. And it boggles my mind how people can comlpain about reducing the number of games per tournament from 10 to 8 effectively costing the players money, while also saying that XBall is too expensive because they get 40 games instead of 10. If 40 games is too many, make the matches shorter, make the rosters smaller, make the divisions smaller.


As for your argument that XBall players shoot more paint, I submit that you HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. On a per-game basis, paint consumption is MUCH, MUCH lower in XBall than in 7-man. XBall players rarely go through more than a pod, where as 7-man players routinely take the field with 5 or more pods.

You additionally indicate that you have no idea what you're talking about in regards to XBall when you say things like "The game slows down and someone throws in the towel, causing more paint to be shot."

Throwing in the towel causes 2 minutes to be run off the game clock, causing LESS paint to be shot. (With the exception of the last 5 minutes of each half, where you're talking about getting maybe an extra minute or two of paintball.) But again, if too much paint is being shot because too much paintball is being played, you can very simply change match time to play less paintball.


HOW MUCH PAINT YOU SHOOT is based on HOW MUCH PAINTBALL YOU PLAY, *NOT* based on FORMAT!

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

The game slows down and someone throws in the towel, causing more paint to be shot

Chicago

I think what he meants was, that instead of letting the game wind down to a boring close - and the flag being walked back.... the towel being thrown, amounts to more net game time in that particular match

Nick