XBall lite, get 8 guys to the tournament and thats it. 7-man sucks as it is. No sideline couching and no couch. Just throw the flag from the pit.
Okay, on this whole reunification thing...
- Thread starter Furby
- Start date
Whatever format is eventually chosen has to be something that can be played by all players around the world. Not only the more dedicated tournament teams, but the little Johnnys playing at the local field with just 1/2 a case for the day. Having an Xball-like format with X points to win (as suggested by Nick) seems to meet that criteria.
A standard set of rules can be applies at all levels.
Extremely easy to explain the game concept.
Would be just as TV friendly as Xball.
Costs can be controlled by number of points to win at each level.
Overall period time limits would prevent defensive games.
Perhaps something else would be having a referee stop a game and require a restart if the game pace slows too much---something similiar to what they do in the Ultimate Fighting Championship or Boxing. Make the teams start over without the 2 minute break to reload.....
My hope is that the powers that be remember that the format MUST be playable at ALL levels. Baseball, basketball, soccer, etc. can be played by six year olds to 60 year olds. Paintball at the tournament level needs to have that same appeal so that we can continue to pull in kids to keep the sport alive. We need them as much if not more than we need a TV deal.
A standard set of rules can be applies at all levels.
Extremely easy to explain the game concept.
Would be just as TV friendly as Xball.
Costs can be controlled by number of points to win at each level.
Overall period time limits would prevent defensive games.
Perhaps something else would be having a referee stop a game and require a restart if the game pace slows too much---something similiar to what they do in the Ultimate Fighting Championship or Boxing. Make the teams start over without the 2 minute break to reload.....
My hope is that the powers that be remember that the format MUST be playable at ALL levels. Baseball, basketball, soccer, etc. can be played by six year olds to 60 year olds. Paintball at the tournament level needs to have that same appeal so that we can continue to pull in kids to keep the sport alive. We need them as much if not more than we need a TV deal.
I don't disagree, but we need to remember that paintball at the tournament level was NEVER the same game played by little Johnny Paintballer.
Back in 1983, players were appalled to see me walk onto the field with 60 rounds and my own gun. I rarely needed that many rounds but - piss poor planning on my part had gotten me eliminated the week before and since it was solvable by bulking up, I did so. "Regular Joe" players rent their gear, try not to get eliminated but don't really care, joke around and have found another way to hang out in the woods and drink beers on a Saturday. Tournament players sweated blood over bad positioning, invented high tech stuff cause no one had it and are/were a breed apart, regardless of where they played.
There are so many things about the tournament game that are 'entrenched' in our hearts and minds that its virtually impossible to meet the requirements set forth. No one is really willing to experiment or break out of the box. We tried limiting paint - didn't work in the old format. Might be worth a revisit. Happen? No. Some used to limit elimination areas - didn't work - old hat. Try again? Unlikely. Round fields instead of rectangular? No effen way. Build a more open field? Too few bunkers - won't happen. 'Tag Team paintball? that's stoopid.
There's nothing wrong with 'elitist' pro rules; college baskeball is a little different from NBA. Baseball, big changes from T-Ball to little league to Minors. Heck, even the two different conferences have differing rules.
I think if you want simplicity - you're going to have to give up on some cherished ideas about the game.
If you want viewability - something will have to give.
And if you want little leaguers playing pro ball, the pros will want something different.
Back in 1983, players were appalled to see me walk onto the field with 60 rounds and my own gun. I rarely needed that many rounds but - piss poor planning on my part had gotten me eliminated the week before and since it was solvable by bulking up, I did so. "Regular Joe" players rent their gear, try not to get eliminated but don't really care, joke around and have found another way to hang out in the woods and drink beers on a Saturday. Tournament players sweated blood over bad positioning, invented high tech stuff cause no one had it and are/were a breed apart, regardless of where they played.
There are so many things about the tournament game that are 'entrenched' in our hearts and minds that its virtually impossible to meet the requirements set forth. No one is really willing to experiment or break out of the box. We tried limiting paint - didn't work in the old format. Might be worth a revisit. Happen? No. Some used to limit elimination areas - didn't work - old hat. Try again? Unlikely. Round fields instead of rectangular? No effen way. Build a more open field? Too few bunkers - won't happen. 'Tag Team paintball? that's stoopid.
There's nothing wrong with 'elitist' pro rules; college baskeball is a little different from NBA. Baseball, big changes from T-Ball to little league to Minors. Heck, even the two different conferences have differing rules.
I think if you want simplicity - you're going to have to give up on some cherished ideas about the game.
If you want viewability - something will have to give.
And if you want little leaguers playing pro ball, the pros will want something different.
Sometimes these discussions take the course of pretzel logic and some points seem to need repeating.
It's not rocket science: if you want to play longer more paintballs are going to be used; very simple.
Then there is a format that is tried and true and has massive advantages over the antique formats. The arguments that prove that have been named here many times not the least of which include a gigantically better media presentation.
Let's break it down again:
5-player center flag for the regional feeder series and MAYBE for some of the big major league events like Paris and the World Cup. Maybe have just a couple of divisions of 5-player.
Then a natural step up or an entry level would be X Ball Lite with first-to-five-is-winner and 15 minute maximum time. This could be with all the rules the same except shorter penalty times (i.e. one-minute minor penalty and two-minute major) or alternately use standard 1-4-1s, 2-4-1s and 3-4-1s. Games could be scheduled every 45 minutes. Squads would not need to be much more than the five players plus one or two support people because it wouldn't be as athletic.
Next step would be PSP-style X Ball for Div 2 and Div 1 with 2 x 16 minute halves, 2 minute minor penalties and 4 minute majors. Games could be scheduled every hour. This is obviously feasable because there were around 80 teams doing this at the WC from Div 3 up to pro.
Then there could be full-blown NXL style with 25-minute halves which would be the elite division where all the top teams in the world could play in the showcase of our sport where there would obviously be much more media and sponsor focus. Have 16 teams for optimal double-elimination plus major prize money and we're cooking with oil.
Except for the standard 5-player everyone could effectively play the same format, just different durations. And all could use the same fields and field designs.
As Mr Davidson points out this is a natural progression like you see in all major sports with some details getting a little more advanced and sophisticated as you move up the food chain.
As for Mr Wear-the-horns-off-a-billy-goat (guess who
): would you expect Dynasty, Russian Legion, Trauma, XSV, etc to play 15-minute X Ball just so we can say that everyone plays EXACTLY IN DETAIL exactly the same game? Do you think that is best for media presentation? Sorry but we don't live in a world of total financial equality. If we did then we should require everyone to use Talons and then it still wouldn't be fair for some people. Different levels will have different needs and different resources. Just the way it is. Last year the eight top European teams played full-blown NXL-style X Ball and managed to make it through the season, didn't they?
It's not rocket science: if you want to play longer more paintballs are going to be used; very simple.
Then there is a format that is tried and true and has massive advantages over the antique formats. The arguments that prove that have been named here many times not the least of which include a gigantically better media presentation.
Let's break it down again:
5-player center flag for the regional feeder series and MAYBE for some of the big major league events like Paris and the World Cup. Maybe have just a couple of divisions of 5-player.
Then a natural step up or an entry level would be X Ball Lite with first-to-five-is-winner and 15 minute maximum time. This could be with all the rules the same except shorter penalty times (i.e. one-minute minor penalty and two-minute major) or alternately use standard 1-4-1s, 2-4-1s and 3-4-1s. Games could be scheduled every 45 minutes. Squads would not need to be much more than the five players plus one or two support people because it wouldn't be as athletic.
Next step would be PSP-style X Ball for Div 2 and Div 1 with 2 x 16 minute halves, 2 minute minor penalties and 4 minute majors. Games could be scheduled every hour. This is obviously feasable because there were around 80 teams doing this at the WC from Div 3 up to pro.
Then there could be full-blown NXL style with 25-minute halves which would be the elite division where all the top teams in the world could play in the showcase of our sport where there would obviously be much more media and sponsor focus. Have 16 teams for optimal double-elimination plus major prize money and we're cooking with oil.
Except for the standard 5-player everyone could effectively play the same format, just different durations. And all could use the same fields and field designs.
As Mr Davidson points out this is a natural progression like you see in all major sports with some details getting a little more advanced and sophisticated as you move up the food chain.
As for Mr Wear-the-horns-off-a-billy-goat (guess who
): would you expect Dynasty, Russian Legion, Trauma, XSV, etc to play 15-minute X Ball just so we can say that everyone plays EXACTLY IN DETAIL exactly the same game? Do you think that is best for media presentation? Sorry but we don't live in a world of total financial equality. If we did then we should require everyone to use Talons and then it still wouldn't be fair for some people. Different levels will have different needs and different resources. Just the way it is. Last year the eight top European teams played full-blown NXL-style X Ball and managed to make it through the season, didn't they?
Steve:
Therein lies the problem. If we want paintball to truly become a sport recognized by everyone world-wide as a sport, we need to standardize it at all levels of play.
I've been playing for 23 years, and I realize that there are two fundemental formats: recreational and tournament. Back in the day, very few played tourney ball--most paintballers played woodsball. But tournament paintball has experienced explosive growth, and now is the time to address the future of our sport.
TV, Olympics, and any other grand idea that floats around all have the same basic requirements. The biggest issue is the need for a single format that can be utilized world-wide. We solve this, the rest becomes details (to borrow a quote from Robbo).
You mention that college ball varies from pro ball, etc. That's true. But the one thing is they all essentially play the same game. We do not. Xball to 7 man is like basketball to that crazy trampoline basket ball. Both use a ball and hoop, but radically different games. We use guns and a flag, but that's where the similarities end.
If paintball wants to succeed, we need a single pro league playing one format. That will be the format that every little kid in the world will want to excel at. This doesn't mean that other formats need to die, simply that one format be recognized as the world-side standard for the actual sport.
We all know that woodsball/scenario will never die, and always be a part of paintball. They just don't need to be part of the SPORT.
Agreed that that would be the ideal. In which case that format should be X Ball or something that is very similar but with different match durations with commensurate penalties.
Sorry. Don't agree with your analogy. A better analogy would be to say standard single-goal 5 or 7-man is like basketball where the game ends the first time a team makes a goal and X Ball is more like normal basketball. For this reason among many others single-goal is a dinosaur and there's no reason to try to create a Jurassic Park.
And that format should be X Ball.
Again, a natural progression for tournament players:
MAYBE 5-player center flag for the regional leagues and for entry level to get young guns used to playing. (But then again I'm having my doubts based on my own arguments. Single-goal is so passé and inefficient.)
X Ball Lite (15 minutes) > Standard X Ball (36 minutes) > NXL (50 minutes).
Same formats, basically same rules, same fields, looks the same from the outside. World format.
I think the single-goal format was OK back when games were 20-25 minutes long but single-goal will never be good for TV.
Red:
I don't believe Xball and 7man to be similiar beyond guns and paint. The games have different scoring systems, penalty systems, rules, field layouts, etc. The player mentality is teamwork versus non-teamwork (loosely put), total aggession versus offense/defense, etc. I'm sure the list could easily grow quite large if we were to list everything.
Xball is, at the moment, the most convenient format to consider. It doesn't mean that it is THE format to consider. Let's not be small-minded and take the easy way out. The decisions made now will impact us at a most crucial time in our growth period. If we fail now we may never make it back to this point. Everyone needs to keep an open mind.....heck, maybe we sould even consider SteveD's idea!
I don't believe Xball and 7man to be similiar beyond guns and paint. The games have different scoring systems, penalty systems, rules, field layouts, etc. The player mentality is teamwork versus non-teamwork (loosely put), total aggession versus offense/defense, etc. I'm sure the list could easily grow quite large if we were to list everything.
Xball is, at the moment, the most convenient format to consider. It doesn't mean that it is THE format to consider. Let's not be small-minded and take the easy way out. The decisions made now will impact us at a most crucial time in our growth period. If we fail now we may never make it back to this point. Everyone needs to keep an open mind.....heck, maybe we sould even consider SteveD's idea!
I think you're right about that. But I guess I'm sounding like a broken record about the standard formats being like the dodo. I have really come to hate them because they seem such a waste of energy. The only thing I like about 7-man is that it is more strategic which is the same reason I like 10-man--which ain't happening.Originally posted by Jester1
Everyone needs to keep an open mind.....heck, maybe we sould even consider SteveD's idea!