NPPL bps Cap Revisited...

[Beaker]

Originally posted by Intheno
As for the refs; much better in my opinion. Beaker, you weren't there, so you are unqualified to comment on it, even in a 'he said/I heard/he told me' kind of way. You normally have more sense.

Woah there soldier

Originally posted by on pbstar
The refs?
There have been a lot of complaints about the refs. Much more so than usual griping by the losing teams… It seems like less one-for-ones are being called for playing-on, which only leads to even more playing-on. And on the Chronic field some refs have even been accused of actually coaching other Florida teams in the middle of the game.

That + more on any quick trawl of the usual sites, let alone who we talk to who was at the event.

Which is exactly why I asked

was that born out by those of you that were there?

As for point 5, if you have someone held up a scrutineer then they should know all the obvious cheats and more, that is after all their job isn't it?

I'm not saying people can't rat cheats out with a "how-to", but in the exactly the same way you are throwing mud at Dynasty when you think they have dirty guns, proving it is another thing. The current NPPL stance is completely unenforceable against the 'intelligent' cheater, not some guy with an Impulse and a short trigger. There is nothing that the NPPL has that can touch them no matter how many people scream from the sidelines knowing a gun is ramping.

 

[Ben Frain]

Just limit all players to gravity only loaders (no Halo's or Evo II's).

Have all the funky modes and bullets you want allowed, it's no problem, no one going to go above 13-14BPS.

Just like the limits imposed on F1, slows everything down and although it makes is less exciting in one way, makes it altogether more interesting in another

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Intheno
1--As for the refs; much better in my opinion. Beaker, you weren't there, so you are unqualified to comment on it, even in a 'he said/I heard/he told me' kind of way. You normally have more sense.
Were they the perfect officials? Of course not, but they did thier job well. It was great to see Boogie out there too. He's a great ref and makes a difference to refs around him too.

2--So for 2c worth of Intheno opinion:

Gun Cheating - worse

3--as for FA - I would definitely prefer uncapped to capped, and unlimited bullets too. Never limit the bullets. Thats rule number one.

4--The fact is though that this will not happen this season, if at all, so all the speculation and conjecture is redundant. The rules are known, they are not going to be adapted/changed mid-season. I am sure there will be more involved efforts to catch people cheating with thier guns, but the rules are not changing till the end of the season. This shouldn't stop people from continually posting about what the NPPL should 'switch to' of course, but it does seem a little bit like a waste of time to me...

5--One of the interesting things for me is that I know that quite a few of the people that post here about cheating are fully aware of the way that these top teams are getting away with it, and do it themselves. They know the cheat codes and the panic buttons, but given the choice to send the NPPL an e-mail explaining how to catch the culprits, speaking to the ultimate at the event to 'mark his card', or coming on here to chastise the league and the refs for not doing anything about it, they choose the last option, presumably because the former options would be 'snitching', and might cost them 'cool-points'.

6--This hypocracy is rife in paintball and is one of the major things holding the sport back. Stop bitching if you are one of the many who can do something about it. Just keep your mouths shut and keep cheating, or fess up.

1--relax, ITN. Looked to me like Beaks was just asking the question, not implying anything. As you say, the reffing was okay and as Furby noted, there is always some talk.
2--if, in your own estimation, there was more cheating going on than you've seen in previous events, it just may be a growing problem and as such, is worthy of discussion. Nobody is bashing the NPPL. (Even I am uncharateristically being mature. )
3--NEVER LIMIT THE BULLETS. He shoots, he scores.
4--again, it's a discussion. There are lots of things that might never have happened or been delayed if there hadn't been sufficient talk and/or agitation over them. The NPPL is gonna do what it's gonna do but does that mean everybody should just shut up? (Answer is yes, I guess. I "cheated" and skipped ahead to your final remarks. )
Besides, I've heard the idea of a cap is gonna be broached by the NPPL. Any truth to internal dialogue about same?
5--couple of points here. A) There is a difference between knowing a gun is capable of doing x, y or z and knowing precisely how that is accomplished. B) Obviously the players using those guns know . . . but so do, in more than a few instances, the platinum, gold and silver sponsors who make them.
That sort of knowledge would put any and all the leagues in a very dicey position, one I'm unconvinced any of them really want to be in as it would force their hand.
6--won't disagree with the general sentiment but it's hardly a one way street.

 

[Intheno]

OK TJ

1. That just wouldn't work. Not that I wouldn't be in favor of it, but there would still not be enough refs of the ability to make calls that subjective.

2. I take your point.

3. You suggested limiting bullets. That makes you gay.

4. I am not a big fan of open forum rules discussions simply because they just go around and around in circles, as demonstrated here countless times, but as I said, no reason to stop, I just think its a bit pointless to turn every thread into a rules thread.

5. I know


And Beaker,

While I may have been a little harsh on you, your philosophy about a scrutineer is flawed. Are scrutineers born with the knowledge of gun cheats? Of course not. Is Dave Zinkham a full time scrutineer (making that 'his job'), no, of course he isn't. In ideal world this would be the case, but lets deal with reality and leave the fantasy to those who don't know any better. He has to try to keep up with the cheats while the cheats continue to outmanouvre him, while everyone else, including you, keep the 'code of silence'. Then you come on here and complain about gun-cheats. Of course Scrutineers need help. You know some gun cheats. Why don't you help him? Answer that one before you have a pop at the refs.

And I was not even throwing mud at Dynasty. Its an observation anyone who was there could tell you. As for refs coaching on the field. Can you back that up or are you simply cutting and pasting comments from kids on forums? I would be interested to hear if you can. I had no such reports and I specifically asked as many 'critics' as I could what they thought of the reffing. I am prepared to be corrected, but by someone who was there and who can give an example rather than quote anonymous third party 'observations', who themselves do not reveal where the information comes from. Does the 'code of silence' extend so far that even accusations of biased reffing cannot be verified for fear of 'grassing someone up'?

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Gravity feed

Is definitely the answer!

The problem of the high rof's is one of safety - as I see it - people are getting shot unconcíous.

Uncapped FA and 6 pods will not take care of that problem.... gravity feed only will to the greatest possible extent today... until a solution is found that allows the events to scrutinise the boards on all guns effectively.

Nick

 

[shamu]

interesting

Interesting discussion.

From my point of view (someone who was there and watched a LOT of games ) there were more illegal guns in Tampa than previous events. Either I'm getting better at spotting them, or they're getting more blatant.

There were a number of highly suspiscious markers in the pro division, and a lot of them went to the robot. But there were suspicious markers in a lot of other divisions as well. DIII players (and a "kids" team no less) shooting ramping guns? That's just sad. Get some skills before you start cheating. Maybe that's why you kept getting run over....

NPPL is doing some new things. They have the portable radar gun going on the field, similar to what NXL uses. It measures velocity and BPS during a game but I don't think they use it on the field enough. Hopefully we'll see it more in Denver.

ITN makes a great point. A lot of people know about the various cheats out there, or claim knowledge of said cheats, but few do anything about it.

I suspect that like wiping and other forms of cheating, it will continue as long as players feel it gives them an edge. The only thing the leagues can do is work on new ways to catch the cheats and try to make the penalty harsh enough to dissuade the "casual" cheaters.

 

[Intheno]

Loco

1. I am relaxed.

2. Yes there was more gun-cheating, and it is worthy of discussion, which is what we are doing.

3. Scoring is my Forte.

4. Good one, but not everyone should shut up, only the ones who choose not to remedy the thing they complain about due to lack of sack.

5. Absolutely. All fair points, but outside of those that cannot be expected to fess up are a group that can choose to. I don't actually have a big problem with the top teams, just the people that complain about them while desperately trying to get the same software in thier own guns. I do think we are at a stage now where these teams can be penalised for cheating without the manufacturers having a problem with it. Its the teams that ask for the cheats in my experience. Sure, the manufacturers provide what they are asking for, but when they get caught I don't think the teams will blame their sponsors. They will know they slipped up, and take the consequences. Likewise the sponsors will just tell the team they should have been more careful.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Intheno
As for refs coaching on the field. Can you back that up or are you simply cutting and pasting comments from kids on forums?

This particular aspersion is very common and has been since the advent of 'love.' Anytime, any event where a large enough sample of the refs are locals there are always complaints about peeps who know peeps cutting them some slack or helping them out. Was it true in this instance? Who knows. Is the complaint a common one though because it has happened with some regularity in the past? You betcha. This sort of thing is also one of the reasons folks like the NPPL are doing what they can to rely on a trained, quasi-professional group of regular refs. Fairly or unfairly this sort of criticism keeps the powers that be on their toes and working hard to minimize such talk.

 

[Manning26]

I'm obviously responsible for this new mess, so let's cut through the b.s. and focus on what can be done to fix this problem, if not for this year, then the future. Which begs the follow up- if we had a new solution now, why wouldn't we use it now?

Let's start here:

1) I saw Tony Perez with the NXL-style, hand-held radar gun during an Infamous game (on your field, Whale) as he hopped around streams of paint that were flying in on Lasoya, but without a bps cap- what's the point? To the real question: if the hand-held radar guns are on the field, then how can you cheat around that?

2) Why are we discussing uncapped FA if we know full well no one will be able to carry insurance?

 

[Intheno]

manning, who carries insurance for capped FA?

and do you mean Dan Perez?